Dogs and children

WendyM · Post by **WendyM** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:19 pm

Monkey wrote:I have a dog for you, pappillion...

Another breed to add to the list-- how do they do in warm weather with those coats? (Winters can be cold here, so a coat would be a good thing-- but sometimes the summers can get miserably hot.)

NicolaLloyd and Bilclaire-- we were considering Dobermans at first, but worry that it might be just a little too powerful of a breed for him. Our lab is 67 lbs and she can pull him off his feet if she wants to run (she is properly leashed trained, but when she sees my husband she just wants to go to him-- no matter who's holding the leash.)

ckranz · Post by **ckranz** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:09 am

If he is interested in earthdog then you are going to want a small terrier. Rat terriers, border terriers, Parson's terrier etc...as the excel at this activity. I have also seen each of these at several agility competitions and they perform quite well.

Poodles would be great for agility, not so great for earth dog.

For those who do not know what earth dog is, its a pretty cool sport.

The field is comprised of a set of tunnels which are buried under ground. The are several false entrances, false dens and a track is scented of the quarry. The quarry is a rat (Don't worry the rat is unharmed and the rats I have seen seem to like the attention). The rat is placed in the real den. Based on the level of the dog(s) they are released. The dogs need to race to the correct entrance within a given time, races through the tunnels to the rat den in given time and bark at the rat for a period of time.

The tunnels are designed for small terriers, dachsunds etc...

Mid sized terrier have a similar event called strong dog where they have to pull a weighted carcass out of the tunnel.

The event stress the original qualities many of these smaller dogs were bred for, the hunting of vermin and other small game.

ckranz · Post by **ckranz** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:12 am

Lots of paps down here in SOCAL. They seem to like the weather here. They also do quite well in agility, though they may require a lot of brushing.

WendyM · Post by **WendyM** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:13 am

ckranz wrote: For those who do not know what earth dog is, its a pretty cool sport.

The field is comprised of a set of tunnels which are buried under ground. The are several false entrances, false dens and a track is scented of the quarry. The quarry is a rat (Don't worry the rat is unharmed and the rats I have seen seem to like the attention). The rat is placed in the real den. Based on the level of the dog(s) they are released. The dogs need to race to the correct entrance within a given time, races through the tunnels to the rat den in given time and bark at the rat for a period of time.

Here's a very cool video of an earth dog (JRT) going through a practice tunnel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ0z_mr6JWs&NR=1

And here's a strong dog practice (Border Terrier) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QzsTMp-NGo

The rats are conditioned very well, getting extra attention and treats for all the barking. All in all I think a much better life than ending up as snake food or lab animals.

ckranz · Post by **ckranz** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:36 am

My luring club has on occasion run a few earthdog events. The rats they used really seemed to enjoy the attention.

Thanks for posting the videos Wendy. Those are 2 events not often seen by most people that really are exciting to watch.

thistledown · Post by **thistledown** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:01 am

Nettle wrote:I have lots to do with lurchers - one of my favourite types of dog - and I would no way recommend them for a child's first dog. Not because they aren't wonderful - they are - but because of the prey drive. It takes expert managing if the dog is to live a fulfilled life with lots of free-running exercise.

The subject of prey drive crops up a lot on different forums, and many breeds of dog are claimed to have high prey drive - to the extent that sometimes I think the owners believe that 'high prey drive' is synoymous to 'alert'.

I don't join in these discussions because I don't have enough experience to judge the intensity and nature of the prey drive in a lurcher compared to other types and breeds.

It is interesting, therefore, to read your post Nettle. I've always assumed that because lurchers are not bred for looks to conform to a breed standard or bred for the pet market in any great numbers, having a proven prey drive is really the driving factor in breeding a particular dog. In other words, for good breeders, prey drive is the raison d'etre for each new generation of pups.

Surely this is bound to make them ...err... interesting to train?

That's how I understand the situation in the UK, but not sure if it applies elsewhere.

ckranz · Post by **ckranz** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:57 am

Another term people often confuse with prey drive is high energy. What is interesting though is dogs with heightened prey drives perform much better in performance driven activities, especially if the trainer is able to focus that drive into performance.

Can you imagine a greyhound or whippet on a lure course with no drive to chase the bunny (plastic bag). Can you imagine a small terrier trying to go through an earthdog tunnel with no interest in the quarry.

Even in agility that prey drive can be used to help build speed and drive over obstacles.

If one is looking to participate in anyway (even non-competitive), they really do need to work with a dog with both drive and energy. Without drive and energy the activity will not be fun for either of you and not being fun is not good for neither the dog nor the handler.

Being driven also has a tendency to have a dog susceptible to learning some bad behaviors more readily (dog-dog aggression, nipping in play, dog-other pet issues). Part of the training for a sport is also learning how to turn your dog on and turn him off.

Khan, for instance, on a lure course is as enthusiastic as driven as any sighthound, even moreso when setting up for his run. His start is like a shot out of a cannon. He likes the pursuit of small furry things.

Yet at home, I trust him the most with our foster kittens. He is the kindest, gentlest dog with our babies...Chloe is a very close second, but she really wants to mother them and often unintentionally scares them because of her size LOL. Khan goes in jumps up on the couch and lays down letting the kittens come to him, and plays very gently only if the kitten is intersted. Believe me Khan is a very prey driven dog.

Chloe to has a certain amount of prey drive as well (1 wild rabbit and 3 opossums tell me that), yet she works with small game creatures (including rabbits) with not a worry. Work is work and play is prey in her mind. She loves her work, she loves her play

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:17 am

Genuine prey drive is nothing at all like the attitude of dogs performing over agility courses or - surprisingly to some - chasing lures. A dog chasing a lure does not try its hardest if it is a dog with prey drive - because it knows that the lure is just a toy and the whole thing is just a game. A racing greyhound does not run with the intensity of a coursing hound (I mean proper coursing not lure chasing).

Prey drive that is deliberately bred for, as you suggest, thistledown, is a whole different ball game. Lurchers in UK are bred purely for hunting from generations of stock tested in the field, and the prey drive is present far more strongly than in most types of dog. Those lurchers that end up as pets are still those that were bred for working.

This should not be confused with any kind of aggression. Hound breeds are known for their gentle natures. The softest dogs of those types still make the most driven predators. Then, work over, they morph into sofa decorations and let the house cat climb all over them.

Yes, this does make them 'interesting' to train. This type of dog is my specialist area - and for every one that I get before the prey drive has been found out the hard way, I am faced with a dozen where the owners have ignored all warnings until the fuse has been well and truly lit.

Therefore I submit that, gentle and loyal as these dogs are, they are not the dog for a child, nor for an owner who is not prepared to put two solid years into training and for ever be scanning the horizon.

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:48 pm

Paps do well in hot weathers, the coat is often mostly white so it reflects a lot of the heat. They don't require too much brushing except around the ears where the hair is the finest.. I would recomend 3 times a week however, but they are so small that it goes quickly...

However about the earthdog, that I don't know, I didn't know what that was. It might not be the most suitable for that..

On every other aspect they are awesome that is needed for a child and his first dog

dobiemuse · Post by **dobiemuse** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:55 pm

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WendyM · Post by **WendyM** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:52 pm

Nettle wrote:This should not be confused with any kind of aggression. Hound breeds are known for their gentle natures. The softest dogs of those types still make the most driven predators. Then, work over, they morph into sofa decorations and let the house cat climb all over them.

Yes, this does make them 'interesting' to train. This type of dog is my specialist area - and for every one that I get before the prey drive has been found out the hard way, I am faced with a dozen where the owners have ignored all warnings until the fuse has been well and truly lit.

Here in the US if the dog isn't chasing acceptable quarry (like squirrels or rats) and is focused on pet animals then prey drive commonly gets mislabeled as aggression, usually "cat aggression." It makes me wonder if Labs are ball aggressive in these peoples eyes if they really want to play fetch.

I have very little idea of what I'm doing with a drivey dog in my home (lately my life has centered around keeping the dog and the tasty kitties safely sequestered away from each other, and conditioning her to ignore them.) While I'm sure she's learning that our cats are off limits, she seems positive that this can't possibly apply to all cats, or squirrels, or chip monks.

Nettle, if you don't mind I've had a question that's been nagging at me about her and you may be the one with the answer. Lure coursing: I know she wouldn't be able to compete because she's a Dane, but she loves to run and chase-- would it help to reshape her prey drive from living creatures to non-living objects?

On other fronts, I emailed an Irish Terrier breeder in CA that was happy to recommend some books about her breed, and answered a few of my most pressing questions. I'm going to research the breed a bit more, but its starting to sound like we should take Irish terriers off the list.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:26 am

I did laugh at the 'ball aggression'

Dogs exhibiting prey drive are not showing aggression any more than we feel aggressive towards our dinner. Aggression is based on fear. Prey drive is pure pleasure. Nothing anyone can give a dog can come near to equalling the thrill of the awakened prey drive. The wheels come off a lot of conventional training because many dog trainers misinterpret what is happening.

Re: the Dane - Danes are the descendents of hunting mastiffs, and should properly be in the Hound group. Lure chasing may be bad for their health because of those big bones and joints and the massive head. I would offer the opinion that different activities be substituted, using toys eg fetch and find.

Different breeds have very different characteristics each side of the pond. In UK, Irish terriers are very close to their original functions and therefore not suitable as pets unless they are to be very well trained, and worked hard. Jack Russells, while they can will and do work at their original functions, are 'softer' dogs and much more amenable to redirection.

thistledown · Post by **thistledown** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:49 am

Nettle wrote:Prey drive is pure pleasure. Nothing anyone can give a dog can come near to equalling the thrill of the awakened prey drive.

amen to that Nettle.

That's my quote of the week.

NicolaLloyd · Post by **NicolaLloyd** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:44 am

dobiemuse wrote:Btw... Bilclarie and Nicola... have you seen the youtube one where the dobie protects the baby from the other dog? He won't let the other dog near the baby and keeps herding him away keeping a circle of protection. Cute!

Yes I've seen that clip - it really is lovely to see. Dobermanns have such a hard time and in my opinion (and experience) the reputation they seem to have is actually the complete opposite to how they behave. Of all the Dobermann's I've met, I've never had anything but a very enthusiastic welcome and a wagging nub!

ckranz · Post by **ckranz** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:37 pm

Prey drive is a beautiful thing

I think I have posted this short video clip before. But watch the intensity of Khan at the startline and the pursuit. Lure course is prey drive in its finest. You really see high drive dogs go all out running. My favorite dogs to watch coursing are Borzois and Salukis, their stride and that long flowing hair makes them pure poety in motion.