Dog eating

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ZaraD
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Re: Dog eating

Post by ZaraD » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:48 am

JudyN wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:39 am
There's a lot of them about though!

Another thing to bear in mind is that substitutes for dairy such as cashew or almond milk also have one hell of an environmental impact - the land needed to produce these can result in the loss of wildlife habitat, causing the suffering and death of many animals, including primates. Similarly for a lot of the foodstuffs vegetarians & vegans would eat more of, such as avocados (I get through a lot of avocados :oops: ).
So really it's a no win situation no matter which way you look at it.

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Re: Dog eating

Post by JudyN » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:33 am

ZaraD wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:48 am
So really it's a no win situation no matter which way you look at it.
To a large extent, yes. Some choices are always going to be better than others, but it's not always easy to work out which is best. Free-range organic might on the surface of it seem to be a no-brainer, but then more land will be needed which could have supported wildlife (or more likely be built on). And organic cotton production uses a lot more water than non-organic. All you can do is find out the facts to the best of your ability and if still unsure, go with your gut. In your case literally go with your gut of course as you're limited in what you can eat!

I'm not saying that we should all think 'Oh, it's all too difficult, I might as well eat whatever's cheapest in the supermarket,' because let's face it, intensively reared animals live short and horrible lives. Just that we can't spend our lives worrying about the impact of our choices, and that it's possible to be an ethical meat eater, or vegetarian, or vegan, as well as an unethical meat eater, or vegetarian, or vegan.
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Nettle
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Re: Dog eating

Post by Nettle » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:58 am

I particularly agree with your last paragraph, JudyN.

I would have to be very hungry to eat a dog, the same way I would have to be very hungry to eat insects (popular and unremarkable in some parts of the world) cats or horses. But in theory I would have no objection to others doing so, as long as those dogs were treated humanely all their lives. And it is very clear that these are not well-treated in life or in the moments of death. That is my objection to the dog meat practices.

Over here, as a first world issue, it is not difficult to find animals being raised for food that are well-treated. Those are the ones I eat. I am also capable of providing my own meat, from scent to plate, though I don't any more. I count many farmers among my friends, and I wouldn't if their animals were not well-kept.


I have been very poor and very hungry (not dog, cat, insect or horse-eating hungry but hungrier than most first-world people get to be) and I for one don't have a single principle I wouldn't cast aside if I were genuinely long-term starving. It's a privilege to be able to choose what to eat.

But the dog meat festival is not about starving people. It's about woefully mistreated dogs. Many of which are farmed in horrendous conditions that would make puppy-farming in Europe look like paradise, and many of which are stolen pets.
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ZaraD
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Re: Dog eating

Post by ZaraD » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:09 am

Nettle wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:58 am
I particularly agree with your last paragraph, JudyN.

I would have to be very hungry to eat a dog, the same way I would have to be very hungry to eat insects (popular and unremarkable in some parts of the world) cats or horses. But in theory I would have no objection to others doing so, as long as those dogs were treated humanely all their lives. And it is very clear that these are not well-treated in life or in the moments of death. That is my objection to the dog meat practices.

Over here, as a first world issue, it is not difficult to find animals being raised for food that are well-treated. Those are the ones I eat. I am also capable of providing my own meat, from scent to plate, though I don't any more. I count many farmers among my friends, and I wouldn't if their animals were not well-kept.
Totally agree if I could eat meat I would only eat meat from people who look after them very well and kill them humanly ( I think that's how you spell it) I have friends too Nettle who are farmers, I can't eat meat though but not by choice it's because I get I'll everytine I eat chicken, beef ect..

Interesting fact for you all I'm half native American by blood my dad was a native American and my mom is English, I grew up in Alaska then when I was 12 we moved to England. So I catch my own fish and was taught how to as a kid ( I was also taught how to survive in harsh surroundings and to hunt. I prefer life here :D

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Re: Dog eating

Post by JudyN » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:24 am

We need to remember that in some countries with low animal welfare standards, the human rights record is appalling too. It must be hard for people in those countries to take us seriously when our animals are treated much better than their children are. These are countries where children are regularly beaten, and selling your 10-year-old child into prostitution really can be the 'least bad' choice. The welfare of an animal isn't going to be high on their list of priorities.

As for how animals are slaughtered - I may be wrong, but as I understand it, however humanely they are raised, they all have to go (unless to be consumed by their owner) to a standard slaughterhouse. There's just no way that such a busy setting, staffed by the sort of people who can bear to do this job (who must, at least, be able to dissociate themselves from this animal as a sentient being), they're going to be handled gently and with care throughout. Maybe this is really just an issue with poultry (and rabbits?) which can be grabbed, hung upside down, dropped, etc. - possibly it is a lot easier for animals such as cattle, thanks to the wonderful work of Temple Grandin (and the fact that you can't accidentally step on them).
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Shalista
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Re: Dog eating

Post by Shalista » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:35 pm

ugh ive seen videos of slaughterhouses. pigs, some of the smartest animals we have, routinely get boiled alive. :evil: :cry: :evil: :cry:
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Nettle
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Re: Dog eating

Post by Nettle » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:41 am

I've BEEN in slaughterhouses, and no they don't, not over here. Don't believe all you read in leaflets from animal "rights" groups. :wink:

The slaughterhouse experience over here - transport, holding areas etc. isn't the best experience animals can have, but it's the best it can be made. The actual killing process is quick not just for humane reasons but to get everything completed and cleaned up in the shortest time. Yes you get exceptions, which you get in any industry, and these are sorted out once discovered. UK slaughterhouses are very strictly regulated. I would like to see an ideal world where animals live and die where they are raised, but the law does not allow this. I dislike factory farming but I am realistic enough to realise that I am lucky that I can source my meat and the meat my dogs eat elsewhere. Even kibble relies on factory farming.
But it is very important to maintain animal welfare standards, raise them if we can, constantly observe and improve.

Frankly, I see far more genuine cruelty on a daily basis in the world of pets, especially dogs, as dogs are my work.
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ZaraD
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Re: Dog eating

Post by ZaraD » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:47 am

Nettle wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:41 am
I've BEEN in slaughterhouses, and no they don't, not over here. Don't believe all you read in leaflets from animal "rights" groups. :wink:

The slaughterhouse experience over here - transport, holding areas etc. isn't the best experience animals can have, but it's the best it can be made. The actual killing process is quick not just for humane reasons but to get everything completed and cleaned up in the shortest time. Yes you get exceptions, which you get in any industry, and these are sorted out once discovered. UK slaughterhouses are very strictly regulated. I would like to see an ideal world where animals live and die where they are raised, but the law does not allow this. I dislike factory farming but I am realistic enough to realise that I am lucky that I can source my meat and the meat my dogs eat elsewhere. Even kibble relies on factory farming.
But it is very important to maintain animal welfare standards, raise them if we can, constantly observe and improve.

Frankly, I see far more genuine cruelty on a daily basis in the world of pets, especially dogs, as dogs are my work.
I forgot that Shalista is in America :oops: , nettle is correct American slaughterhouses must be very different to UK ones.

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Dog eating

Post by Lotsaquestions » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:55 am

Boiled alive?! The US just keeps getting better and better...

Does make me fear for animal rights if this brexit mistake goes through, as most of our animal rights legislation comes from them.

I am also a huge believer that when it comes to animal rights religious exemptions should be made a thing of the past. Halal meat in the UK is, from the last time I read, only 80% pre-stunned. That means 20% of animals still die slowly from exsanguination, which in some animals can take up to 4 minutes. Kosher? I think that is close to 0% pre-stunned. Appauling it is allowed.

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Nettle
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Re: Dog eating

Post by Nettle » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:07 am

Very tricky (as are so many things) as soon as religion is brought into it. Personally I think welfare trumps dogma, but then I am not religious. However, if the origins of any religious instructions are examined, there are often differences in practice compared with "the book".
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Suzette
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Re: Dog eating

Post by Suzette » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:03 pm

Lotsaquestions wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:55 am
Boiled alive?! The US just keeps getting better and better..
And with this comment this thread went from an interesting discussion to insulting...
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ZaraD
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Re: Dog eating

Post by ZaraD » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:11 pm

Suzette wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:03 pm
Lotsaquestions wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:55 am
Boiled alive?! The US just keeps getting better and better..
And with this comment this thread went from an interesting discussion to insulting...
Are you from the USA Suzette? I'm from Alaska, i have been to America on more than one occasion loads in fact and as a country i love America obviously I'm bias to Alaska ( i know not everyone classes Alaska as part of America) :D
Last edited by ZaraD on Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Dog eating

Post by Lotsaquestions » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:26 pm

Sorry you were offended, though to be frank I'm not sure why criticising a nation's policies on animal welfare would be cause for offense (or any important matter, really). Feel free to criticise the UK anytime, we have plenty of issues.

I in no way view a nation as a reflection of its people, just a reflection of its governance. I also feel is it important to be able to freely criticise a nation, otherwise it'll never be able to grow.

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Re: Dog eating

Post by Suzette » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:32 pm

ZaraD wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:11 pm
Suzette wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:03 pm
Lotsaquestions wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:55 am
Boiled alive?! The US just keeps getting better and better..
And with this comment this thread went from an interesting discussion to insulting...
Are you from the USA Suzette? I'm from Alaska, i have been to America on more than one occasion loads in fact and as a country i love America obviously I'm bias to Alaska ( i know not everyone classes Alaska as part of America) :D
I am, and proud of it! :D We are not perfect, but there is no such magical place. And yes, I absolutely consider Alaska as part of our great country! :D
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11

Erica
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Re: Dog eating

Post by Erica » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:45 pm

I don't know anyone who doesn't think Alaska is part of America :P

And yup, there's good and bad everywhere. We can certainly criticize what needs changing -- this forum may not be the place to do it -- but if we don't recognize and acknowledge what's wrong, it will never be changed!
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