Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

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carrie_02
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Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by carrie_02 »

So recently a friend showed me a video that went viral, where a family had put a fake human figure out on their lawn that was a Halloween decoration. The video showed their dog dropping a tennis ball in the "person's" lap and nudging the ball like he wanted to play, and my friend kept saying "That's so cute, the dog doesn't know it's not a real person!". But I find it impossible to believe the dog didn't know. Do you think he knew that it wasn't real? And if he did know it wasn't a real person, why did he look to be trying to get it to play with him?! Thanks for satisfying my curiousity with your answers ;)
JudyN
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by JudyN »

That's an interesting question and has got me thinking...

Humans understand pictures so well, maybe because we're exposed to them from such an early age. And we also have a very clear concept of ourselves and therefore of humans in general. Dogs don't, in general, understand pictures - I don't think they would recognise anything in a book. Though Jasper has been fooled by a metal cat shape on someone's gate, at least until he investigated it. Maybe when they see something that looks like something, they will assume it is that something until proved otherwise.

Imagine you could go back to Stone Age time and take with you a life-size cardboard cutout of a person which you stand where people could see it. IN their experience, anything that looks remotely like this behaves as a person does. How long would it take them to realise that it wasn't a person, and wouldn't do what people normally did? Even when they realised it was two-dimensional they would probably still try to communicate with it, as they hadn't learnt '2D people aren't real'.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Shalista
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by Shalista »

Dogs actually fail the "self-awareness/consciousness" test as well. when shown a mirror they are unable to detect that the object in the mirror is themselves, unlike people, chimps, and dolphins i believe. I wonder if a similar lack of awareness would extend to inanimate object that look like people.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
Erica
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by Erica »

We use (life sized, realistically posed) stuffed dogs as decoys for working with reactive dogs, because dogs think they're real most of the time and we don't have to worry about stressing out the decoy, or have anyone handling the decoy...just plop it down and get to work. Some dogs may recognize them as fake if they get too close, work with the same decoy too long without it moving, and almost definitely if they investigate it.
Delta, standard poodle, born 6/30/14
carrie_02
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by carrie_02 »

Thanks for your answers everyone, they was really interesting!
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Nettle
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by Nettle »

Two things that I would like to know with relation to this - can anyone help?

1. At what age do children on average distinguish real people from people shapes?

2. Has anyone tried using a life-sized model of a dog to help with separation anxiety? (I think a life-sized person would be tooooo creepy). I wonder if dog is in crate and toy dog is at a distance but in the same room, if that would help at all?
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JudyN
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by JudyN »

I know a lot of people get a real dog in an attempt to improve separation anxiety and find it doesn't work - maybe trying a pretend one could be a good way of testing the waters.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
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Nettle
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by Nettle »

Oh yes - a real dog brings all sorts of insecurities to the situation.
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emmabeth
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by emmabeth »

I've used a fake dog as a stooge in a few cases... so far though I have found dogs either ignore the fake dog and know it isn't real or don't care at all OR think it is real and dislike it v much.

I have not yet found a dog who likes it, and considers it real, but it is an interesting idea.

My fake dog has to be locked away though as certain (ahemWOMBLEahem( dogs wish to savage him to death!
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jacksdad
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by jacksdad »

Shalista wrote:Dogs actually fail the "self-awareness/consciousness" test as well. when shown a mirror they are unable to detect that the object in the mirror is themselves, unlike people, chimps, and dolphins i believe. I wonder if a similar lack of awareness would extend to inanimate object that look like people.
people can and have failed the mirror test too.

The mirror test may not actually be the definitive test it was thought to be. Many test for intelligence and self awareness are very much human biased and do not take into account what may be natural for X animal, how that animal gathers and processes data from the world around them etc vs how humans do. It is very possible that not all animals (which includes humans) derive a self awareness via visual means.

In the case dogs...I have began to wonder if their self awareness is more scent based vs visual based. nothing to back this up, simply food for thought and an idea that came to me after reading up on some introductory books regarding intelligence. But...what if while dogs look into a mirror and see a dog, react to the reflection as if it was a real dog, but so not appear to process that that is them...yet when they come across a smell they respond to it the way we do when we look at our self in the mirror...as in...they that smell...that is me. where humans just process an odor. we can associate a smell with someone, but to my knowledge we can't identify others by their smell the way dogs do. again...food for thought.

An easy to read and understand "intro" to this kind of question is Dr. Clive Wynne's book

Animal Cognition: Evolution, Behavior and Cognition 2nd Edition
https://www.amazon.com/Animal-Cognition ... +congition
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Nettle
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by Nettle »

Very good point there, Jacksdad. Also some dogs respond to animals on television, and run behind the TV to find them, whereas others don't.

If I play a DVD that involves a pack of hounds in full cry, my dogs respond to the sound not the picture. Boy do they respond, though. They have been out with packs of hounds so they know what the noise means - maybe if they hadn't they wouldn't, but there's no way of telling.
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Erica
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by Erica »

I find it interesting that Delta only selectively responds to dog noises played from electronics. I think sometimes some part of the recording must miss what is to dogs a vital part of the picture.

And that is such an interesting idea, Jacksdad! I know a nearby university does a lot of research on canine cognition...wonder if they've done anything on this kind of thing? They mostly focus on how dogs interact with humans but this seems right up their alley anyways :P Will have to ask them I guess!
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JudyN
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by JudyN »

Dogs can also be 'trriggered' by certain objects even if they (probably) know that they're not real. Jasper will stare hard at a cat-sized stone in a driveway. He also fixates on cars travelling along a road in the distance over open ground. I think he knows they're not deer, or he would take off after them, but he finds it hard to ignore them. But then I can react to spider-like objects even if I know they're not spiders.

So it's possible a dog would react to a fake dog as if it was a real one, while all along knowing that it isn't real.

Jasper doesn't respond to barking on the telly but he does to high-pitched buzzing that sounds like insects. He also once heard a 'raspberry' sound on the telly and turned his head to stare at his bum. I'm not sure if that shows self-awareness or not :lol:
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DianeLDL
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by DianeLDL »

Nettle wrote:Very good point there, Jacksdad. Also some dogs respond to animals on television, and run behind the TV to find them, whereas others don't.

If I play a DVD that involves a pack of hounds in full cry, my dogs respond to the sound not the picture. Boy do they respond, though. They have been out with packs of hounds so they know what the noise means - maybe if they hadn't they wouldn't, but there's no way of telling.
Hi All,

Yes, I back. This is an interesting conversation. As you may remember, Sandy has and still jumps at any animal on the TV: dogs, cats, birds, here in the US the ads with the Geico gecko and the AFLAC duck. He also seems to remember which ads have an animal, and as soon as he hears or sees the beginning of the ad, long before the animal shows up, he already is poised to act. :twisted: We have tried turning off the sound to no avail. :roll:

And, TV shows, like NCIS that had a parrot, Sandy went bezerk. If we know in advance that there will be an animal especially one that is the feature of the show, we either watch in the bedroom where Sandy isn't allowed. Or if it's on demand, we have put him in his travel crate, facing me, with blanket over the back and turn off the sound.

He even reacts to dogs barking in the background on the TV show or ad, such as someone outside a house, and a dog barking down the road. The proof is in the scratch marks on our TV stand. And, he used to run behind the TV, but he has stopped. :lol:

If we are fast enough, we change to the guild channel. We hate the ones with picture on the guide. Therefore, as I said, we watch more TV in the bedroom. :lol:

I personally believe that Sandy and perhaps other dogs believe that the TV especially with the size of screens today, are really windows. :shock: So, Sandy may really believe that this animal is coming into his territory. As we know, chihuahuas are VERY territorial.

As someone mentioned earlier, about fake dogs, we have several stuffed animals in the bedroom which is another reason that Sandy isn't allowed in there. When we first got him, he ran into the bedroom, grabbed one of my small stuffed bears by the ear and began running around the house with it. We finally got it back unharmed. :mrgreen:
So, we will not bring any stuffed dog as decoy into the house for fear, he will think all stuffed animals are for him to play with.
But, as a decoy, wouldn't the dogs know it doesn't smell like a dog or do you spray it with some dog smell?

Good to be back & I'll update you in the General area in what are your dogs doing 2? :D
Diane
Sandy, Chihuahua mix b. 12/20/09
DianeLDL
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Re: Do dogs know a real person from a fake?!

Post by DianeLDL »

JudyN wrote:Dogs can also be 'trriggered' by certain objects even if they (probably) know that they're not real. Jasper will stare hard at a cat-sized stone in a driveway. He also fixates on cars travelling along a road in the distance over open ground. I think he knows they're not deer, or he would take off after them, but he finds it hard to ignore them.
Judy,

There's a rest stop on the way to Portland from Bangor, Maine. Since Maine is the home of the Black Bears, they have huge statues of a black bear and a couple of cubs. We made the mistake of parking near them, and Sandy went crazy. I don't know if he thought they were real or their size. :shock:

Since then, we stop in the other side where there are no statues, and have had no problems. :wink:

But, he had no problem in Amarillo, Texas whew they have two dimensional statues of Buffalo. Perhaps since he could see the backs of them, and lift his leg on it, it didn't bother him. :lol:
But, it was a good thing we went over the bridge and not in the creek bed as someone later told us she saw a rattlesnake there. I usually let DH take Sandy where there are warnings of snakes since he's more familiar with them. :mrgreen:

Diane
Sandy, Chihuahua mix b. 12/20/09
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