Dominance and play

[Shalista]

I've read a lot of stuff about how dogs don't really need to play, how even if they are playing its all about hunting and establishing dominance.

When i was at the store today working on polite people greetings with bax this huge old golden lab came up. they sniffed and bax snarked a bit before i pulled him away. the line was long and both bax and she were pulling towards each other so i let bax cautiously have another sniff. on second go they got along famously. they played and bounced and then the old lab lay down and started playing with him more. to my human eyes it looked like she was getting down to his level. if playing is all about resources and hunting, why would the old lab get down to his level?

this isn't the first dog to do this either. a very hyper, young shepherd mix would drop down every time bax came over to say hi.

tl;dr why do big dogs go into a down to play with small dogs?

[JudyN]

I think some dogs, in some situations, do like to play, without any strings attached. And as dogs are very social animals, they know how to make it a 'fair' game so will handicap themselves. Maybe this comes from an instinct to encourage their pups to play to improve their fitness & skills?

I see a whole range of 'play' behaviour in Jasper when he does decide to interact with another dog (mostly he just ignores other dogs). Most often with him there is an element of challenging, and establishing who is boss - it's very easy to see. Veeeery occasionally there will be nice play, but even then chances are sooner or later he'll either get fed up and gets snarky if the other dog persists, or he'll razz himself up. Paradoxically, although he loves other lurchers, he sometimes gets peed off nowadays if he can't easily outstretch them when running.

The trouble is that most owners think their dogs need to play, and want to play, and love to play, and simply cannot see when their dog, or the dog they're playing with, isn't happy at all.

[jacksdad]

I've read a lot of stuff about how dogs don't really need to play, how even if they are playing its all about hunting and establishing dominance.

Play isn't "all about hunting", in fact most dog play that I have observed would make for very lousy hunting practice. Though I am sure there are some breed exceptions to that last sentence. Also, it's not about establishing dominance.

play can be an important tool in learning to be socially appropriate with both humans and other dogs.
play can build social bonds
play can help work out social hierarchies, not the same as dominance. Correctly defined dominance is an entirely different topic.

Now, having said that....

Not all dogs will be open to or welcoming of play. Not all dogs maybe safe to play with other dogs for a wide variety of reasons. And NO dog should ever be forced to play with just any dog that comes alone.

There are a lot of very positive things that an come from play. So to say "dogs don't really need play" as a blanket rule or a "fact" in regards to all dogs is not a accurate statement. But because it comes down to an individual and what that individual needs, or wants we may find dogs that are not welcoming of play. Or may simply be VERY choosy about who to play with.

we want to be careful about overly simplistic statements such as "all dogs should be able to play with other dogs" or "all dogs need play" or "no dog needs play" etc. There are dogs who NEED to play and have that social interaction with other dogs. And for every social butterfly, there is a Jasper. we had a dog come through class about a year ago that was going "crazy" because of lack of social contact and playtime with other dogs, 80% of this dog's behavior issues went away when dog/dog social time at a dog park no less was added in. Last time I talk to the owner, this dog was loosing interest in the dog park and preferring to go walk, sniff, and explore with it's owner. So as the dog matured, it out grew the need to play, play, play.

My personal dogs can take it or leave it and at 9 years old generally has little interest in playing with other dogs. I am directly working with a dog that needs dog/dog social time, but it has to be carefully monitored and play partners carefully chosen due to his size and play style.

play is a complex topic and an activity that has lots of "it depends". if you want to dive more into it, Patricia McConnell has some good stuff to get you started.

[Nettle]

To add to the very good responses you've already had, I would say that incidents such as you mention between two dogs are an ongoing dialogue. It might have been:

"HEY let's jump all over each other"

"Back off and show some respect"

"Oh. Sorry"

"I should think so. Now then - let's sniff"

"How about if we do this?"

"Yes that's fun - and then we can do this" etc etc.

I am frequently when people say this or that dog behaviour is about hunting. One can guarantee such people have never hunted with dogs. Even very respected scientists can be completely off the money in their hunting assumptions as discussed in revered research. So whatever you read or hear - run it through your bullshine filter before you believe it. There are nuances in most behaviour patterns, and there is so much about dogs that we still don't know.

[Shalista]

thanks guys that's very helpful. I've been careful about not letting Bax play with other dogs. He can be a bit bouncy and a bit much for other dogs so I'm always careful to draw him away if there's a snark. I just wasnt expecting this random dog he didn't know to get down on his lvl like that.

[Nettle]

Also understand the difference between pulling a dog away - which leaves him all alone facing the other dog/person/whatever, and getting between him and the hazard and pushing him away with your leg, which affords him the protection of your body. It makes a huge difference to how a dog feels about a situation.

[jacksdad]

I am frequently when people say this or that dog behaviour is about hunting....

I never fully appreciated your comments about hunting until I started spending time around a Jindo. Once you have seen true hunting behavior you will never mistake chasing a ball for high "prey drive" again...among other misapplied "hunting" labels to behavior.