only one type of training method?

[SmokysMom]

I think that it is fairly obvious that Victoria intensely disliked J.D. because of his "aggressive" training methods.

I don't get it.

So, it is better to constantly reward dogs with treats, instead of a "Good Girl!"

I would think that a dog who performs for praise is more loyal than a dog who performs for food.

What is the food-type trainer going to do when there isn't any food around, or do they ALWAYS have to keep food around to keep their dogs in line?

Is a food-trained dog performing for food, or for love of the owner?

Victoria should be ashamed of herself for promoting this type of training. I am all for positive reinforcement, but if the only way that you can get your dog to perform is for treats, than, in my opinion, you are not only doing a disservice to your dog, you are also promoting unhealthy behaviors and diets for dogs.

Victoria should also be ashamed of herself for believing that SHE has the ONLY training method. She should have been much more open-minded, and definitely cast herself in a very negative light on this television show.

Galaxy clearly loved J.D. and performed for him out of this love, most definitely not FEAR, and certainly not to get a treat.

There was an earlier episde where JD and Laurie were talking about training methods. He mentioned that he rewards Galaxy with a "Good Girl!". When he said this, the camera was off him, and trained on Galaxy. As soon as Galaxy heard "Good Girl!", she lifted her head and wagged her tail. Doesn't seem to me to be the behavior of a dog who is threatened and performing out of fear.

[Elef]

I enjoyed watching all the dogs, and felt they were all wonderful.

Once they eliminated JD, I was so angry during the finale that I hit the mute button every time the judges started to speak. I was especially angered by Victoria and her obvious dislike of JD. The judging was inconsistent through the entire competition, which was extremely frustrating.

I thought that Bill and Star were the best pair there, followed by JD and Galaxy. Bill is a gentleman, but you could tell he was frustrated with Victoria's mixed messages and he didn't agree with what she was saying.

I thought Wendy was spot on when she accused Victoria of believing that her way was the only way. There was no aggression in JD's treatment of Galaxy, no threatening tone or posture. During the loyalty test he was trying to keep in Galaxy's line of sight, which meant bending over. I was insulted and angry on JD's behalf when Victoria yelled "Look at me," at JD to get her "point" across. That was totally inappropriate. Not once did JD raise his voice like that.

I would like to know if the judges got to see any of the other footage of the owners and dogs interacting. If she still thinks that Galaxy is intimidated by JD then she's showing her bias towards his training methods, which are not based on fear and threats, and wearing blinders to the love and respect the two have for each other.

I will not watch another season of this show, despite my love for dogs, if things are not radically changed.

[Missymay]

See, so many people go wrong here. It is not that there is only on training method, and R+ trainers have a plethora of methods available to them.

But dogs only learn by 2 means, classical conditioning and operant conditioning. Period. That has nothing to do with methods and is pure science.

In operant conditioning, there are 4 posiible consequences for any given behavior

R+ - something given to increase the odds of a behavior being repeated
R- - something taken away to increase the odds of a behavior being repeated
P+ Something given to decrease the odds of a behavior being repeated
P- Something taken away to decrease the odds of a behavior being repeated.

P+/R- involvolve aversives and R+ based trainers avoid these quads. The fact is, they have fallout, which has been studied and verified for decades.

Additionally, they are simply not needed to train a behavior.

As for constantly rewarding a dog with treats, that is just a myth perpetuated by those with a lack of understanding. Treats, usually the size of a pinky fingernail or smaller, are used to tain new behaviors and upcriteria on known behaviors, but once the behaviors are learned, the food is phased out.

And not all "rewards" are food related. I have a dog who will turn headstands for a ball.

And yes, J.D's stance and training methods were force based. That does not mean they were painful, just that the dog is complying to avoid rather than to gain.

Think of it this way: Would you rather comply to avoid a lecture or gain praise?

[Elef]

What was Galaxy avoiding?

[KLDDoglover]

Was it only in one challenge that JD leaned in towards Galaxy? I only remember him doing this once. Most of the time throughout the other challenges I want to say JD was standing straight up and down with his finger up as others were doing. So, if it was only once that JD leaned in towards her like this, maybe it's because he never had to experience so many distractions and just was trying to get her to better focus by being closer with his eyes. Yes, maybe not the right choice, but I can see why he did it and would feel may people would be inclined to lean in to bring the focus of the eyes closer together not thinking about how it may appear to the dog. Also, he said "good girl" many times in a soothing voice so it would seem to me that that would trump any kind of threatening stance and let her know that he is not being threatening.

[SmokysMom]

JD's reward was praise, a "Good Girl!". How is this force based?. It seems to me that this is more of a R+ method.

If the food treats are "phased out", then why did we see the owners on this show constantly giving their dogs treats. Why were they all wearing bait bags?

The biggest issue that I have is that Victoria was biased against JD because she did not agree with his training philosophy. There are different methods, and each owner needs to decide which works best for him and his dog. No judge, in any competition, real or for-tv, anywhere, should have any preconcieved biases such as that. If a person can't get rid of biases, they should not be judging. And, yeah, I realize that may be a naive, idealistic statement, but it would certainly improve things.

[Tenzin]

I agree JD got a bad rap. Galaxy didn't come across as cowed or afraid or intimidated, only well trained and responsive, and he didn't shout at her or abuse her. I think Victoria (in particular) decided to use him to make a point about traditional vs. more modern training methods, and the whole thing got out of hand. When I was training my first dog 30+ years ago, the way you taught "sit" was to gently push the hindquarters down., then reward. It was NOT abusive!!! Now the more accepted practice is to raise a treat above his head so that he sits down in order to see it better. OK, that works too, but I don't see that it is so obviously morally superior...

JD got so frustrated at being made the "bad guy" and his attempts to defend himself being ignored that he finally just lashed out and made a an *** out of himself. (What was that parting shot about waving Galaxy's hind paws in the air??? Was it supposed to be "doggy mooning"?)

It's true that treats are supposed to be phased out as the behavior is learned, but we sure saw a lot of treats being used by some of the contestants all the time.

[Tenzin]

I agree JD got a bad rap. Galaxy didn't come across as cowed or afraid or intimidated, only well trained and responsive, and he didn't shout at her or abuse her. I think Victoria (in particular) decided to use him to make a point about traditional vs. more modern training methods, and the whole thing got out of hand. When I was training my first dog 30+ years ago, the way you taught "sit" was to gently push the hindquarters down., then reward. It was NOT abusive!!! Now the more accepted practice is to raise a treat above his head so that he sits down in order to see it better. OK, that works too, but I don't see that it is so obviously morally superior...

JD got so frustrated at being made the "bad guy" and his attempts to defend himself being ignored that he finally just lashed out and made a an *** out of himself. (What was that parting shot about waving Galaxy's hind paws in the air??? Was it supposed to be "doggy mooning"?)

It's true that treats are supposed to be phased out as the behavior is learned, but we sure saw a lot of treats being used by some of the contestants all the time.

[Mattie]

I hope that Victoria takes these attacks as a compliment, it is always people who seem to think that everything that was filmed, everything that was done to the dogs was shown in the tv show.

There are quite a few posts on here stating that most of what happens ends up on the floor, the parts shown are just to make an entertainment show.

When people attack like this, they are saying more about themselves than Victoria, and their knowledge.

[SmokysMom]

My comments certainly aren't intended to be compliments, more like constructive criticism. And maybe a push to be a little more open-minded.

No one method will be right all the time for all dogs.

Of course, most of the footage ends up on the cutting room floor. Anyone who watches reality tv knows this. But you can't edit in something that was never said or done.

[Missymay]

And, I am sure that Victoria's reasons for believing JD uses force based methods did wind up on the cutting room floor.

I know Victoria is highly aware that praise and play are positive reinforcers so what we saw would not be enough to make her think JD uses force based methods. I find it hard to believe she would be a premiere speaker at the APDT conference if she could not recognise R+ training that did not involve food.

As to why you saw bait bags, they are common when changing criteria and a new location is a change in criteria.

I am always curious as to why people see nothing wrong with using correction for life to gain compliance under avoidance but object to using food for life to gain compliance.

Bob Bailey, who trained thousands of animals from hundreds of breeds, advocates continueing on a 1:1 reinforcement schedule for life, constantly upping the criteria so the animal is always learning something new.

[KLDDoglover]

[quote="Missymay"]And, I am sure that Victoria's reasons for believing JD uses force based methods did wind up on the cutting room floor. /quote]

Then I guess one the editors didn't care for Victoria because seeing her attitude persist towards JD episode after episode and not seeing what happened, it's very hard to give Victoria any credibility. It just made her look very bad and unprofessional. I find it strange that they would have left the incident out causing Victoria's attitude yet they did show far worse antics performed by Theresa on Leroy. It just doesn't make any sense.

[KLDDoglover]

I hope that Victoria takes these attacks as a compliment, it is always people who seem to think that everything that was filmed, everything that was done to the dogs was shown in the tv show.

There are quite a few posts on here stating that most of what happens ends up on the floor, the parts shown are just to make an entertainment show.

When people attack like this, they are saying more about themselves than Victoria, and their knowledge.

I found this very rude. Obviously we don't know what happened. But if you are going to try to defame someone's character on national TV, you'd think Victoria would have made sure the video clip of the proof would be included in the show. I don't care how many books or tv shows Victoria has. She is still human and able to make misjudgements and have personality conflicts and make poor choices in how to handle them. I don't think she deserves the death penalty for this. I think she should just apologize and I feel that is very reasonable. JD has a business that provides happiness to many people of all ages. I think it is very wrong to mess with someone's character without proof.

[SmokysMom]

Also, if there is footage and therefore "proof" that JD was using force to train Galaxy, then why the heck was Travis following JD around like a puppy and copying everything that JD did?

From what I saw of Travis on the show, I doubt that he would have emulated JD's training techniques if he felt that they were forceful and harmful.

[Mattie]

I found this very rude. Obviously we don't know what happened. But if you are going to try to defame someone's character on national TV, you'd think Victoria would have made sure the video clip of the proof would be included in the show. I don't care how many books or tv shows Victoria has. She is still human and able to make misjudgements and have personality conflicts and make poor choices in how to handle them. I don't think she deserves the death penalty for this. I think she should just apologize and I feel that is very reasonable. JD has a business that provides happiness to many people of all ages. I think it is very wrong to mess with someone's character without proof.

I find your posts very insulting, you have attacked someone when all you have seen is edited highlights done my someone who wants high ratings for their shows and not for anyone on the program.

You are not the first to insult Victoria after only watching the edited highlights and won't be the last, but I find it very strange that people join this forum just to attack someone who is well known and is hiding behind their computer screen.