only one type of training method?

[Aussie]

So that's a no on the bookstores? Thankyou.

[lablver2]

when I was naive and young I had a 3 year old unruly lab pup. I saw Cesar and I thought Wow this guy is amazing. So I adopted the choke chain. I learned how to use it correctly and used it. Belgian listened really well but i didn't pay attention to my dog's behavior. Well I found Victoria and positive training and have applied the techniques on Belgian. He actually enjoys training now and listens better.

I hope my big brown boy can forgive me for my mistakes. I promised to protect him and instead I did the opposite. I have lost the choke collar and I hope to never find it. I love my sporn halter and Belgian actually wants to walk.

Hopefully the new season of IMOTD will let us Americans like me see the positive effects of positive reinforcement

[Aussie]

I didn't buy the books by Cesar but since I don't shop on the internet I was hoping someone saw Victoria's book or Tamar Gellars book in a store.

[maryella1]

I've watched a lot of Victoria Stilwell TV shows and all the American Dog shows. she has never promoted "food only" training. she starts with treats and then, as she says over and over in her TV show, "eventually, the dog does it without treats." using treats is a very common dog training technique. why all the fuss over this?

[Missymay]

A few things to add to the Cesar part of the discussion which Emmabeth and ckranz have analyzed so insightfully.

Cesar's methods work. Plain and simple. They really do. That is because they are part of Skinner's quad, P+/R-.

And I think with 90% of the dogs out there, this type of training will create the desired results, a dog who sits when you say sit, downs when you say down and walks nicely at one's side.

Then there are the other 10%. These are the ones who will react to these methods by going from fearful to fear aggression, the ones who learn displaced aggression and turn on their handlers, the smart ones who learn that leashes mean the possibility of punishment looms and bite when you touch their collar, the ones who learn that human hands cause pain and learn to bite.

But when you stop and realize that this 10% can be fixed with positive reinforcement based training, then the question becomes: do the dogs who can handle correction based training need to be trained that way?

I agree that Cesar presents a pretty little picture for the uninformed, but once you become aware of body language, the truth of what he does in on the screen every week.

I also think that Cesar's methods are very reinforcing for the handler. Deliver a correction, create more desireable behavior and the handlers use of force is positively reinforced, so is likely to be repeated.

Add to this Cesar's proclaimation that he is a Dog Psychologist (a completely made up title, considering psychology applies exclusively to humans), that he rehabs dogs and trains people (a ridiculous phrase given that he is nothing more than a simple yank and crank trainer) and that he, among all other trainers, is willing to take on "Red Zone" cases (again, just silly considering the number of dogs that are rehabbed every year with kinder methods), and you have a made for TV trainer who will cause his leagions of uninformed followers to even spend several dollars for a bottle of his "calming" water at the local Petco.

[maryella1]

Andrew's owner and JD had a discussion about training methods, just the subject that you are speaking of - positive VS Alpha (my words here). She suggested that JD's agressive method intimidated or hurt the dog? and JD replied that his method - the alpha dog method did not hurt his dog. the discussion was clear, that he did indeed use aggressive methods while training his dog. there is no doubt that all these owners loved their dogs.

and why shouldn't Victoria Stilwell strongly lobby for her method, in other words, have an opinion? i don't believe that it had anything to do with JD leaving in the last episode. He came in, as he said in his interview, and saw a lot of problems that other owners had etc. He was very sure that he would win, assumed it. i would have elliminated him before this episode and had Leroy as part of the final 3. it is not about pure obedience. it's about the interaction, loyalty through mutual respect and love. not about how deeply you can intimidate your dog and train all the dog's spirit out of her - that's what i objected to with JD. great dog, but very low on spirit. a real shame.

[maryella1]

Andrew's owner and JD had a discussion about training methods, just the subject that you are speaking of - positive VS Alpha (my words here). She suggested that JD's agressive method intimidated or hurt the dog? and JD replied that his method - the alpha dog method did not hurt his dog. the discussion was clear, that he did indeed use aggressive methods while training his dog. there is no doubt that all these owners loved their dogs.

and why shouldn't Victoria Stilwell strongly lobby for her method, in other words, have an opinion? i don't believe that it had anything to do with JD leaving in the last episode. He came in, as he said in his interview, and saw a lot of problems that other owners had etc. He was very sure that he would win, assumed it. i would have elliminated him before this episode and had Leroy as part of the final 3. it is not about pure obedience. it's about the interaction, loyalty through mutual respect and love. not about how deeply you can intimidate your dog and train all the dog's spirit out of her - that's what i objected to with JD. great dog, but very low on spirit. a real shame.

[Abashed]

JD was cocky, no doubt. It was clear, however, that he loved Galaxy and that Galaxy loved him. Galaxy watched him with the intensity of a hunting dog, waiting for his next command. There was no sign of fear or submission, that I could see.

Victoria even praised JD for making everything a game.

As for his training methods, I think the term assertive is more appropriate than aggressive. To me, aggressive means pain or fear is involved, and as I said, I saw no signs of fear in Galaxy.

[Mattie]

I didn't buy the books by Cesar but since I don't shop on the internet I was hoping someone saw Victoria's book or Tamar Gellars book in a store.

In the UK if we ask a bookshop to get a book they normally do so it may be worth asking your local bookshop for any book that you want. You committed to buying the book if they get it for you.

[Tenzin]

I agree with Abashed. I didn't get any sense that Galaxy feared or was cowed by JD. I'm willing to bet he's never hit her or yanked her around (I know some thers disagree, but I feel taking hold of a dog's scruff --no yelling or shaking! -- is perfectly OK in some circumstances),. He might have been a bit too assertive in the "sit-stay through distractions" exercise in the final episode, but cut him some slack -- it was a high pressure situation and he got carried away. Laurie didn't, but then she knew that Andrew wasn't going to be all that tempted by people calling him and throwing toys around.

The show is over but the controversy continues!

[ckranz]

I agree with Abashed. I didn't get any sense that Galaxy feared or was cowed by JD. I'm willing to bet he's never hit her or yanked her around (I know some thers disagree, but I feel taking hold of a dog's scruff --no yelling or shaking! -- is perfectly OK in some circumstances),. He might have been a bit too assertive in the "sit-stay through distractions" exercise in the final episode, but cut him some slack -- it was a high pressure situation and he got carried away. Laurie didn't, but then she knew that Andrew wasn't going to be all that tempted by people calling him and throwing toys around.

The show is over but the controversy continues!

I watch both sit stay's again the post and the sit with distractions. On the post JD was far less intimidating and the camera only caught 1 time when Galaxy offered a tongue flick...a sign of a dog relieving stress.

During the stay with all the distractions JD's physcal posturing was for more intent and intimidating. Galaxy gave several tongue flicks as a sign of stress, as well as lowering her head as an appeasement gesture, She does this several times before give the release from that challenge.

Whether or not you train believing Alpha theory or Positive trianing techniques, body language is body language.

I mentioned in another thread that I disagreed with Victoria about the forward leaning posture as being threatening...and I still do. But Looking at the rest of JD's posture...his eyes were pushed forward, the corners of his mouth were pushed forward as if angry. Galaxy was offering her appeasement (lowered head and tongue flicks) behaviors as a result of his intimidating body language.

Yes it does tak multiple viewings to pick this stuff up unless you are trained to look for it. Reading a dogs body language is not always easy and things come and go very quickly. Once released, for instance JD was not so intimidating and Galaxy instantly relaxed and seem quite happy.

[Liz & Koa]

Hi,

I can certainly understand everyone's views, but I have to say I agree with Victoria. There is no doubt that JD loved Galaxy with all his heart, but I could definatly see the little bit of stressfullness in Galaxy, even though she did great. I think the body language was all there.

I loved the show. Andrew was great, and I think Travis and Presley had a great, happy relationship that came through in the end.

I hope there is another season.

[Poshie]

From what I understand JUST as with the myth of proper usage of food rewards needing to be a on going and everlasting part of maintaining behavior according to scientific studies a TRUE threshold correction to behavior ( not withstanding any negative backlash behavior) regardless of the physical or mental aversive factor also needs not be ongoing and repeated to maintain behavior. I think people from both sides of the camp often reflex to this inaccuracy.

I am also curious as to what anyone thinks as to the definition of force training or something being either physically or mentally aversive as I notice some people who profess to use only P+ and a little P- using intimidating verbals, facial expressions, and body posturing such as hand and body movement that I would consider aversive, threatening, intimidating, or forceful even though no physical contact has been made with the dog. Do you feel this is exceptable and can be considered a exception?


I am curious as to what some think about the perspective of condtioning boundaries . Can a dog that has not been taught /conditioned by the absence of any aversives really be counted on not to exceed a/any boundary to behavior? If so would all dogs then perform equally or have the same adherance to behavioral boundaries when using no aversives or force training? ARe there no exceptions? Is there really such a absolute?

The reason I ask because having talked to some top trainers (heated debates LOL) who train dogs for herding competitions/work, police,protection, ect ect They all say that some aversives are required at times.

thanks for any opinion

[Mattie]

I am also curious as to what anyone thinks as to the definition of force training or something being either physically or mentally aversive as I notice some people who profess to use only P+ and a little P- using intimidating verbals, facial expressions, and body posturing such as hand and body movement that I would consider aversive, threatening, intimidating, or forceful even though no physical contact has been made with the dog. Do you feel this is exceptable and can be considered a exception?

Can you explain what you mean by this please?

[Poshie]

For example making loud or attention getting sounds along with pointing a finger,making a blocking movement of any kind,stepping into or at a dog with would could be considered a threatening manner to the dog?

hope that helps?