Hi! I started a post recently where I stated a family friend of mine was looking into getting a dog and wanted some good website suggestions for training advice. Anyways, I told her that she should consider a rescue dog rather than just getting a puppy from a breeder, and she said she thought a puppy from a reputable breeder would be a lot more likely to be trainable and well adjusted than one from a rescue. But she wants informed opinions (and I'm no expert). So what do you guys think- are you more likely to be able to successfully train and have a well socialized dog if you get it from a good breeder?
Like I mentioned in the previous post, she is a novice dog owner. However, right now she is trying to educate herself by shadowing a positive reinforcement trainer, watching good videos and resources, and going to a clicker expo, because she wants to be able to train this dog- probably with the help of a trainer- to compete in obedience competitions, which she has always wanted to do. So she wants her best bet at being able to train the dog and have the dog be confident and have a stable temperament.
Thanks!
Breeder versus rescue
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: Breeder versus rescue
I hear 'breeder" and i have a knee jerk bad reflex. I did alot of things wrong with how i got Bax but i did get him from a breeder and he came with a host of issues.
Make sure you do your homework about what kind of environment the pups will be in and any socialization they might have if you DO chose to go with a breeder.
Make sure you do your homework about what kind of environment the pups will be in and any socialization they might have if you DO chose to go with a breeder.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
Re: Breeder versus rescue
A friend in breed rescue states that with an adult rescue, you pretty well know what you are getting. I would trust my local breed rescue to match me up with the right dog for my wants. But I have spent time with the breed and gotten to know those who work in the rescue and they have gotten to know me.
Many groups specifically go to rescue groups or animal shelters to find the ideal dog to train for a wide variety of useful purposes. Dogs end up in rescue for a wide variety of reasons such as job loss, health issues, and just a mismatch of owner to dog energy level.
There are prison programs where one can adopt a dog already trained in a wide variety of skills. Surely a dog who has been trained in one of these programs would be known to be trainable. Your friend would have a foundation to build upon with an adult dog which may well be the best way to go for a first time owner. As I recall the friend also has several children of varying ages.
I would advise she spend time at dog shows and obedience trials and talk with those who are in the sport about what attributes they think help to make a dog successful in the sport and if they have opinions on good vs bad breeds. If your friend has a good support group and locates a reputable rescue or prison training program, or locates a good reputable breeder who also enjoys the sport of obedience with their dogs, I think she could find what she wants in either rescue or puppy.
I think her main consideration should be how much time she will have available to work with a puppy, which is starting from scratch, as opposed to an older dog who is already house trained and knows basic obedience and some tricks. My friend who works in rescue doesn't do puppies because their needs are more demanding than she has time available in her day.
Many groups specifically go to rescue groups or animal shelters to find the ideal dog to train for a wide variety of useful purposes. Dogs end up in rescue for a wide variety of reasons such as job loss, health issues, and just a mismatch of owner to dog energy level.
There are prison programs where one can adopt a dog already trained in a wide variety of skills. Surely a dog who has been trained in one of these programs would be known to be trainable. Your friend would have a foundation to build upon with an adult dog which may well be the best way to go for a first time owner. As I recall the friend also has several children of varying ages.
I would advise she spend time at dog shows and obedience trials and talk with those who are in the sport about what attributes they think help to make a dog successful in the sport and if they have opinions on good vs bad breeds. If your friend has a good support group and locates a reputable rescue or prison training program, or locates a good reputable breeder who also enjoys the sport of obedience with their dogs, I think she could find what she wants in either rescue or puppy.
I think her main consideration should be how much time she will have available to work with a puppy, which is starting from scratch, as opposed to an older dog who is already house trained and knows basic obedience and some tricks. My friend who works in rescue doesn't do puppies because their needs are more demanding than she has time available in her day.
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.
Re: Breeder versus rescue
I'm another one who got a puppy from a breeder (or rather an owner who bred from her dog) and still had a lot of issues to deal with.
It depends so much on the rescue. Some will do anything to get a dog adopted, including lying. Many (most?) keep the dogs in kennels so have no idea what the dog will be like living in a household. And the dog may be so shut down that he seems calm, then his real personality emerges days, weeks or even months after he's been adopted.
If you can find a rescue that finds foster homes for dogs so they can be properly assessed in a home environment, then you can be more sure of getting a dog without too much baggage. You want a rescue that will not just give you whatever dog you want but will homecheck you, discuss your needs and even turn you down for some dogs.
If your friend decides to get a puppy from a breeder, again, she should expect to be vetted by the breeder. She needs to see the dog's mum and ideally dad too, ask about the temperament and health of all other related dogs, whether the puppies have been raised in the home, whether the breeder has selected for temperament, what early socialisation they've been given, whether the breeder will take the pup back if for any reason it doesn't work out, and so on.
It depends so much on the rescue. Some will do anything to get a dog adopted, including lying. Many (most?) keep the dogs in kennels so have no idea what the dog will be like living in a household. And the dog may be so shut down that he seems calm, then his real personality emerges days, weeks or even months after he's been adopted.
If you can find a rescue that finds foster homes for dogs so they can be properly assessed in a home environment, then you can be more sure of getting a dog without too much baggage. You want a rescue that will not just give you whatever dog you want but will homecheck you, discuss your needs and even turn you down for some dogs.
If your friend decides to get a puppy from a breeder, again, she should expect to be vetted by the breeder. She needs to see the dog's mum and ideally dad too, ask about the temperament and health of all other related dogs, whether the puppies have been raised in the home, whether the breeder has selected for temperament, what early socialisation they've been given, whether the breeder will take the pup back if for any reason it doesn't work out, and so on.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Re: Breeder versus rescue
I'm one who would say find a GOOD breeder and get a well-reared pup from healthy stock. You can get lovely dogs from rescues (I have) but I also work with rescues and most have very little knowledge about dogs in general never mind the actual dogs they have. When people hand dogs in they often don't tell the truth about the dog's issues either. These dogs come with baggage, and while an experienced owner might well enjoy working with these, it can be overwhelming for someone having their first dog.
So - if going to a rescue, choose one that knows about dogs rather than a pink fluffy oooh aaah lots of use of the word 'love' one, go with someone who knows their stuff even if it means paying for their time, don't take anyone who is going to 'fall in love' with a dog on your behalf and do the 'oooh you should have that one' pressure, and have a very clear idea of what you (your friend in this case) actually wants and doesn't want. 'Doesn't want' is as important as 'want'. Remember that there is a high likelihood of getting a puppy-farmed dog from a rescue, with all the attendant health and social issues.
Most of all make sure that the rescue offers back-up behavioural help from a properly qualified behaviour trainer. Last week I had to break up a fight when a dog someone had had for three weeks tried to kill - and I do mean that - an elderly dog on a lead. In the process, the old dog's owner was badly bitten and will be maimed for life. All because a pink fluffy rescue neglected to mention that the type of dog they had rehomed was great with people but not other dogs. The owner would have been a super home for a different type of dog OR with honest assessment of the type she had been fobbed off with.
If going to a breeder, do lots of homework on the breed/type, know the potential health issues and as JudyN says, pick a breeder who will offer ongoing help through any glitsches or even take a pup back if it doesn't work out.
So - if going to a rescue, choose one that knows about dogs rather than a pink fluffy oooh aaah lots of use of the word 'love' one, go with someone who knows their stuff even if it means paying for their time, don't take anyone who is going to 'fall in love' with a dog on your behalf and do the 'oooh you should have that one' pressure, and have a very clear idea of what you (your friend in this case) actually wants and doesn't want. 'Doesn't want' is as important as 'want'. Remember that there is a high likelihood of getting a puppy-farmed dog from a rescue, with all the attendant health and social issues.
Most of all make sure that the rescue offers back-up behavioural help from a properly qualified behaviour trainer. Last week I had to break up a fight when a dog someone had had for three weeks tried to kill - and I do mean that - an elderly dog on a lead. In the process, the old dog's owner was badly bitten and will be maimed for life. All because a pink fluffy rescue neglected to mention that the type of dog they had rehomed was great with people but not other dogs. The owner would have been a super home for a different type of dog OR with honest assessment of the type she had been fobbed off with.
If going to a breeder, do lots of homework on the breed/type, know the potential health issues and as JudyN says, pick a breeder who will offer ongoing help through any glitsches or even take a pup back if it doesn't work out.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
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doglover33
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:14 am
Re: Breeder versus rescue
Thank you for your posts! These are a lot of good thoughts. I'll she her these posts- I think she is kind of coming around to consider a rescue dog. If not, I know she will make sure she only supports an ethical breeder- she has already been looking into them.
Re: Breeder versus rescue
I also vote reputable breeder. While there are no guarantees, a reputable breeder will have done all possible health testing and know those health test results for 4-6 generations back. A purebred dog from healthy (mentally and physically) parents will have a higher degree of predictability of traits. It allows for a good match, provided the new owner is honest with themselves about their wants and needs as well as the time they can devote to training, exercise and grooming.
Re: Breeder versus rescue
I think it really depends on which kind of work you want to do. Both sources of dog will still result in the owner needing to put in a fair bit of effort in the early days.
I have just (2nd Jan) got a pup from a reputable breeder, her temperament is to DIE for, shes fabulous and I know what to expect from her as she grows up - she started puppy class young as being a trainer, my friends are trainers so she's gone to a mates class earlier than anyone elses dog would have (she graduates puppy class on Sunday, when she will be 14 weeks old, I think half her class STARTED at nearer that age!)..
The work involved there is socialisation, potty training, putting in the basic training for recall, sit, down, don't mug people for food etc - i love it and I find puppy training super fun (I hate potty training though, especially in winter!).
The last time we got an adult rescue dog, there was still a ton of work... just different work. Teaching her that training was fun, what food rewards were, that I would listen to HER and she could open up a conversation with me rather than just wait to be told to do stuff or yelled at. It was heavy going at times and there was a LOT of unpicking what previous humans had done - again I enjoy this but then, I would.. the average dog owner might not.
Not every adult rescue has any real issues, what might be an issue for one person, an insurmountable problem, could be no big deal or even not happen in a new home with a new owner. Going to a GOOD rescue who are realistic, sensible, HONEST and offer sensible behavioural back up (such as the rescues I work with, who use me!) will help with that.
I think the one thing I now would not do and would not recommend others do... is rehome a rescue puppy, which is probably a bit shocking and controversial!
Puppies are NOT a blank slate at all, that idea is a massively misleading concept - even an 8 week old puppy has learned from previous experiences and it may not be clear what that puppy has learned until much later on. Most puppies in rescue are not going to new homes at 8 weeks though, they are going out at 10 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 weeks old and by that point their slate is CRAMMED full of stuff they have learned that almost certainly, you will wish they hadn't.
I recently watched a pup from a rescue in puppy class, this lad was 14 weeks old, and he had already learned to play by basically attacking other dogs, hackles up, basically a massive bully, and he got a HUGE buzz from behaving this way, he was not scared in the slightest (even if hte behaviour had started in fear) he loved it, and the more he could make another pup squeal and run, or he could squash it, the better (that didn't happen in class but i saw videos of his behaviour from the owners before he attended, a few days earlier)...
Couple the issue of them already having learned unpleasant or inappropriate behaviour, with the likelyhood that at that age you have NO idea what that pup will turn out to look like, nor what he will turn out to BE in terms of his breed traits (want to herd? hunt by sight, by nose, want to kill, want to dig, want to retrieve) - that can really easily end up in people taking on something they were absolutely not prepared for nor equipped to handle.
The people I mention above had absolutely no idea what they had taken on and I can safely state htey were NOT enjoying owning him once they stepped outside of their own home, at all.
I have just (2nd Jan) got a pup from a reputable breeder, her temperament is to DIE for, shes fabulous and I know what to expect from her as she grows up - she started puppy class young as being a trainer, my friends are trainers so she's gone to a mates class earlier than anyone elses dog would have (she graduates puppy class on Sunday, when she will be 14 weeks old, I think half her class STARTED at nearer that age!)..
The work involved there is socialisation, potty training, putting in the basic training for recall, sit, down, don't mug people for food etc - i love it and I find puppy training super fun (I hate potty training though, especially in winter!).
The last time we got an adult rescue dog, there was still a ton of work... just different work. Teaching her that training was fun, what food rewards were, that I would listen to HER and she could open up a conversation with me rather than just wait to be told to do stuff or yelled at. It was heavy going at times and there was a LOT of unpicking what previous humans had done - again I enjoy this but then, I would.. the average dog owner might not.
Not every adult rescue has any real issues, what might be an issue for one person, an insurmountable problem, could be no big deal or even not happen in a new home with a new owner. Going to a GOOD rescue who are realistic, sensible, HONEST and offer sensible behavioural back up (such as the rescues I work with, who use me!) will help with that.
I think the one thing I now would not do and would not recommend others do... is rehome a rescue puppy, which is probably a bit shocking and controversial!
Puppies are NOT a blank slate at all, that idea is a massively misleading concept - even an 8 week old puppy has learned from previous experiences and it may not be clear what that puppy has learned until much later on. Most puppies in rescue are not going to new homes at 8 weeks though, they are going out at 10 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 weeks old and by that point their slate is CRAMMED full of stuff they have learned that almost certainly, you will wish they hadn't.
I recently watched a pup from a rescue in puppy class, this lad was 14 weeks old, and he had already learned to play by basically attacking other dogs, hackles up, basically a massive bully, and he got a HUGE buzz from behaving this way, he was not scared in the slightest (even if hte behaviour had started in fear) he loved it, and the more he could make another pup squeal and run, or he could squash it, the better (that didn't happen in class but i saw videos of his behaviour from the owners before he attended, a few days earlier)...
Couple the issue of them already having learned unpleasant or inappropriate behaviour, with the likelyhood that at that age you have NO idea what that pup will turn out to look like, nor what he will turn out to BE in terms of his breed traits (want to herd? hunt by sight, by nose, want to kill, want to dig, want to retrieve) - that can really easily end up in people taking on something they were absolutely not prepared for nor equipped to handle.
The people I mention above had absolutely no idea what they had taken on and I can safely state htey were NOT enjoying owning him once they stepped outside of their own home, at all.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Breeder versus rescue
Neither option is inherently better than the other. Neither is inherently morally superior to the other.
There are horrible breeders, there are equally horrible rescues.
There are top notch breeders, there are top notch rescues.
due your due diligence and make the choice that is inline with your reasons/goals for having a dog.
There are horrible breeders, there are equally horrible rescues.
There are top notch breeders, there are top notch rescues.
due your due diligence and make the choice that is inline with your reasons/goals for having a dog.
