How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

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MPbandmom
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How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by MPbandmom » Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:46 pm

The other evening I attended a meeting where rules were being discussed for the local dog park. It seems that the evening crowd has been having trouble with people bringing "aggressive" dogs to play as well as entire males, and that they have on occasion found in heat females on the park grounds although well away from the dog park area itself.

There are already rules for the area which were copied from other dog parks. Someone brought in another set of more stringent rules that have been placed on some other dog park apparently kind of in the area. There was discussion as to the age by which a dog should be neutered. Comment was made that larger dogs taking longer to mature. I gave a benchmark of 2 to 3 years of age. Others were flabbergasted, vets recommend 6 months to a year. I commented that thoughts are changing on that due to illnesses associated with early spay neuter. Others felt surely a year was old enough. Vets must know what they are talking about. If people didn't want to neuter their dogs by that age, they were just making the decision that they didn't want to come to the dog park. I admit that a year or two ago, I would be in full agreement with this decision. Now I think it is rather unfair.

They moved on to other rules. No treats or food inside of the dog park. A reasonable rule since people can be mugged by foodie dogs and dogs can have resource guarding issues with food and strange dogs around. (Heck Sky becomes guardy over water.) But at the same time a shame, because some of the dogs inside of that dog park could stand to have some positive training in terms of learning incompatible behaviors. Removing food limits the possible positive reinforcement that could go with that training.

There seemed to be a lot of discussion about the various aggressive dogs with owners who are oblivious or don't care. (In the opinion of those who seemingly frequent the dog park in the evenings for the larger group play time.) I made comment about dogs inside of the dog park behaving in an aggressive manner towards dogs outside of the dog park. The response was that it was hoped that I wasn't one of those people who walks their dog along the outside of the fence because of course all of the dogs inside are going to react poorly to that. :shock: There is a sidewalk along the parking area between the parking and the fence. My personal opinion is that if I can't walk my dogs down the sidewalk beside the fence without them being barked and growled at, I most certainly am not going to take them inside of the dog park to see if the dogs inside just have barrier frustration, or truly have some issue with my dog. But, I don't even have to walk my dogs past the fence to have dogs inside of the dog park race over to the fence and behave in an aggressive manner towards my dogs. All I have to do is park my van at the far end of the parking lot, as far away from the dog park as possible, with my dogs still inside. :shock:

It also isn't ALL of the dogs that race to the fence and react aggressively. It is about 3, smaller dogs, 2 corgis and a chi or similar mix. Other dogs inside of the dog park get along with their playing and totally ignore my two. There is a sibe that will come close to the fence and quietly admire? those of her kin who are walking past a ways away from the fence (my two) I didn't mention these facts though. I just commented that from the outside, it appears that there are aggressive dogs inside. The second response was that, well yes, some people had come to the park only to turn right around and leave. But really my dog is really sweet, followed by laughter. :shock: :evil: The meeting leader shot me a look. I kept my mouth shut. Clearly this owner was in denial that there is a problem with the dog.

The discussion moved on to limiting the size of dogs that can be in the small dog park area. It was determined 35 pounds was a good size, because some people with large dogs that don't play well with others use the small dog area and then the small dog owners that want to use the small dog area, can't use it. :shock: Again, I'm not generally there in the evenings, so I don't have first hand knowledge of the kinds of problems they have been having. But I do know that in the mornings, there are those of us who cooperatively utilize the large and small dog areas for parallel but separate play for dogs that likely would not fit within the under 35 lb category. I suppose it is reasonable to have a size guideline for times when things are busy and there are indeed small dogs that want to use the small dog area. My experience is that the small dog area is rarely used by small dog owners. They take them into the large dog area to play with the other dogs. Perhaps the sign should say dogs of a certain size have priority in the small dog area. Plus I have kind of this knee jerk reaction that if you are limiting the size of dogs that can be in the small dog area to under a certain size, one should also limit the size of the dogs in the large dog area to be over a certain size. Yet that idea was not mentioned.

There are proposals to enlarge the area and make it permanent instead of the temporary that is was originally intended to be. Part of the idea is to create a time out, or separate play area to be used much as some owners like myself are currently using the small dog area for dogs which cannot join the general population. I didn't get a really good look at the map, but what I saw appears to add a section beside the small dog area which is divided into 3 parts equivalent to the long dimension of the small dog area. This is apparently to allow an area to be rented for birthday parties, and an area to be used as a "Time out" or separate play area. There was also another additional area on the opposite side by the large dog area. I was unclear as to just what the proposed intent was for each section. The area pointed at as a possible time out or separate play area might work for a chi to chill in and play a little solo fetch, but the existing small dog area is as small of an area where a dog like Sky could have a nice solo or parallel game of fetch. Others think that having such an area available will encourage owners to bring aggressive dogs to the dog park. I am never quite certain how much say I have over things, because I readily admit that I utilize the dog park with a dog that will never be there when other dogs are there and join in group play. At the same time, I get the feeling that the others are trying to "legislate" against certain specific dogs, that come in the evenings while their own dogs are not the models of dog park behavior that they seem to believe they are.

I have suggested adding posters of dog body language. I have suggested that any dog who exhibits aggression should be removed immediately and for the day. (as in I don't think a time out area is generally a good idea.) I have commented that not every dog is going to get along with other dogs, and they gave examples that they have seen where a different dog in the mix changes the relationships of other dogs in the area.

I feel like most of the people at the meeting have mostly average dogs and have no clue about the life of a DINOS owner. (or they fall in the MDIF catagory :lol: ) There are some people at the meeting who work in breed rescue, so I feel like they are more knowledgeable about such things, but they aren't commenting.

On the positive side, Dog Scouts were mentioned and people seemed interested. There was also talk of child safety training and bite prevention training and I have passed along information on both of these things to the meeting leader.

There are a couple of points from the evening that are really grating on me that I can't decide whether to contact the meeting leader about or not. She is currently holding down two positions in our rec dept. as another person is out on medical leave. While I didn't want to get into a big argument with the other individual at the meeting, I also kind of feel like contacting the meeting leader is also putting her in something of an awkward place to arbitrate a disagreement between members which would not necessarily accomplish the ultimate goals of the dog park which is for it to be a safe and fun place for dogs to play. I have been debating simply contacting and refreshing, so to speak, my suggestions on the dog body language signs and maybe also adding a dog stress levels explanation sign. I feel like educating those who don't know about DINOS or realize, or maybe care that their MIDF is scaring away others is a more positive approach to feeling the need to beat my head against a wall, or to become that annoying person with the attitude at group meetings. I have kind of been feeling that way. I am not certain why so many things about the dog park and it's rules just seems highly annoying to me, but they do. Not just the people and their dogs, but city regulations that affect the park usage too. Another alternative might be to leave the committee, but I feel that I have a knowledge base to maybe improve some dogs' experiences at the dog park.

What would you do?
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.

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Nettle
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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by Nettle » Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:15 am

If we want to make changes, the best way is from within, so I would say stay in the committee if this really matters to you.

Some people love to make up 'rules' for others to follow. It's straight from the school playground and annoys the hell out of me. Probably the park doesn't need any more rules but instead the existing rules to be enforced (by whom? When? How?)

I see the proposals as a typical hit at all users for the sake of a few. This is easier than enforcing existing 'rules' or speaking with individual owners and explaining that they are required to do or stop ding something. Government by distance. Why would a well-behaved entire dog, for instance, be refused use of the park while a thug of a neutered one can carry on misbehaving because it is a certain size? What is the problem with exercising on-heat bitches on a lead on a sidewalk or track outside the park? It's a 'rule' that the 'rulemakers' think would be easy to bring in because it inconveniences a responsible minority. Wars start that way (when they banned entire dogs, I didn't speak up because my dog is neutered....).

In an ideal world - which we aren't - offenders are made aware of their errors and encouraged to rehab. while people who cause no trouble are left alone. But in the punishment-oriented world of the rulemaker, everyone is punished because it's easier. A huge endorphin hit for the punishers, too. Maybe you'd better not mention this.

I very much like your suggestions of educating people gently. I'd like to think you can make some progress here.
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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by Swanny1790 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:18 pm

Nettle wrote:If we want to make changes, the best way is from within, so I would say stay in the committee if this really matters to you.

Some people love to make up 'rules' for others to follow. It's straight from the school playground and annoys the hell out of me. Probably the park doesn't need any more rules but instead the existing rules to be enforced (by whom? When? How?)

I see the proposals as a typical hit at all users for the sake of a few. This is easier than enforcing existing 'rules' or speaking with individual owners and explaining that they are required to do or stop ding something. Government by distance. Why would a well-behaved entire dog, for instance, be refused use of the park while a thug of a neutered one can carry on misbehaving because it is a certain size? What is the problem with exercising on-heat bitches on a lead on a sidewalk or track outside the park? It's a 'rule' that the 'rulemakers' think would be easy to bring in because it inconveniences a responsible minority. Wars start that way (when they banned entire dogs, I didn't speak up because my dog is neutered....).

In an ideal world - which we aren't - offenders are made aware of their errors and encouraged to rehab. while people who cause no trouble are left alone. But in the punishment-oriented world of the rulemaker, everyone is punished because it's easier. A huge endorphin hit for the punishers, too. Maybe you'd better not mention this.

I very much like your suggestions of educating people gently. I'd like to think you can make some progress here.
I agree with Nettle.
"Once infected with the mushing virus, there is no cure. There is only trail." - Sven Engholm

MPbandmom
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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by MPbandmom » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:47 pm

Thank you Nettle and Swanny. Feeling highly agitated about something is rather unusual for me and I am glad to see that my gut, so to speak, is not off on this one. Time to collect DINOS information to forward along to the powers that be. I think I will also mention that it seems to me that some people have had some issues with certain specific dogs and seem to be trying a blanket approach assuming that a certain charcteristic affects all dogs regardless of breed, age, or temperament. I'm thinking in terms of the neutering here. I will see if I can locate articles on the down side of early spay and neuter.

Are there any important points that I have missed here? With the DINOS I am thinking dog body language posters and stress levels information. I also intend to point out that my dogs spend a great deal of time hanging out with entire males and females of the canine species and get along with them way better than they do some of the dogs that are in the dog park in the evenings. They don't necesairly get along with every single one of them, but the majority, they are fine with.

A question for Nettle. Someone commented that entire males' urine smells like a female in heat. :shock: Others commented that they had never heard such a thing. I can't say that I have either and something about it seems just plain wrong to me.

Thanks again.
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.

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Nettle
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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by Nettle » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:33 am

MPbandmom wrote:Someone commented that entire males' urine smells like a female in heat. :shock: Others commented that they had never heard such a thing. I can't say that I have either and something about it seems just plain wrong to me.

The things come people make up!!!! :lol:

It's easy for rulemakers to forget that entire is actually normal. It's in the design spec. It's worked for countless species over millenia. Your gut instincts are right - normal females smell like females and normal males smell like males. Who would have thought it?

Would you like some names for modern scientific studies on neutering or have you sufficient (also check out our neutering threads in the Health section)?
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JudyN
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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by JudyN » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:02 pm

MPbandmom wrote:Someone commented that entire males' urine smells like a female in heat. :shock:
That would make for some very confused dogs :lol:

All the entire males I've met have been lovely steady dogs - though this may be because if they weren't they'd have had them lopped off already in the hope that it would change them :wink: But sadly there is a problem in that lots of other dogs don't like them. So stick an entire male in the dog park and fights can start - of course the entire male is blamed even if he was completely innocent. I don't know what the solution is to that. It should be that anyone with a dog who goes for an entire one should avoid the dog park, but I'm not sure if you can persuade the powers-that-be that that's how it should work.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

MPbandmom
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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by MPbandmom » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:06 pm

I know there have been articles in Whole Dog Journal relating to spay neuter. I would welcome any others that Nettle may wish to suggest.

I kind of wish I had more first hand knowledge about the specific dogs and instances that some in the committee seem to be trying to "legislate" against. One breed was mentioned. I have encountered two dogs of said breed. One of whom strikes me as young and excitable whose owner keeps him separated. The other one of whom Sky got into a fence fight with and I was then asked if my dog starts things. Turns out other dog gets tormented by neighbor through the fence at home. The owner brought 3 dogs into the dog park with her. Sky only got into it with the one. Sky is known to stare, but she is also known to not take smack talk off of another dog. It may simply have been instantaneous mutual hatred.

The two entire males who were mentioned were simply mentioned as that. No mention was given to age, or breed, or what the problem was. Just that two entire males had come in and caused problems. Judy's comment is interesting. The manner in which the committee seemed to approach the situation didn't give any appearances of being in terms of looking out for the entire males' welfare.

I find myself wondering on some of these situations, whether the DINOS whose owner takes them into a separate side from the group play for some parallel play is acting up due to their own issues, or due to issues from the supposedly MDIF dogs in the group play area.

The only way I see to determine this is to educate people about dog body language and DINOS and to perhaps break a few pairs of rose colored glasses over in the group play section.

I kind of get the feeling that as long as dogs that come to play get along with some committee members' dogs the dogs are welcome to stay. But if the dog has issues with committee members' dogs or committee members' dogs have an issue with the dog then the guest dog is considered a problem without any thought being given to the give and take and possible trigger sets. And I know for a fact that some committee members' dogs are potential trigger sets.

I guess when time changes and the park is again in use in the evenings, I will have to go spend some time without my dogs doing some first hand observation.
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.

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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by Ari_RR » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:36 am

My hat is off to MPbandmom for staying the course of educating the esteemed committee and not just giving up on them..

My 2 cents (and I have an entire male) - those lovely intact boys who come in peacefully, get chased and growled at by neutered ones, and then on top of that get blamed for being aggressive and causing trouble.... You know, those poor boys perhaps could benefit from some real walks too, instead of being just thrown into the park. I am not sure that by standing up for their right to be there you will necessary do them a favor. Being locked out of the park may in fact lead to them getting real walks?

I have a new definition of dog parks. It's a place where humans congregate and chat and talk on cellphones and read newspapers while dogs do their own things. So, whether you have DINOS or entire males, you are entering at your own risk. Neutered males will come over and growl at your unneutered boy. Other dogs will get in the space of your DINOS even if you pick the far corner to be in. Humans will continue doing what they are doing. Reality of it is that dog parks are not the place for either DINOS or entire males. Restrictions imposed, therefore, shouldn't make much of a difference.

What will make a difference is to emphasize "dog" in "dog park"... Place where humans make sure that dogs can enjoy safe interactions. But this would be a totally different place, with humans engaged all the time, monitoring their dogs all the time, taking actions based on dogs' behavior and body language, able to interpret body language in the first place... This would be hard work for the 2-legged ones there.

So, perhaps I would go back to the very beginning with the committee... What is the purpose of dog park? Safe off-leash environment... Lets agree that all humans there have to participate in making this happen... What is the role of committee? Setting rules, enforcing them... Based on what? Let's agree that we will all educate ourselves, and here is then Whole Dog reference...

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Nettle
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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by Nettle » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:51 pm

For studies on early neutering and its effect on health, check out studies by Dr. Kutzler, Laura J. Sanborn, and as below:


Complications Resulting from Sterilization/Contraception techniques –a list of research articles
http://nal/usda.gov/awic/pubs/SpayNeute ... ations.htm
Long term risks and benefits of early age gonadectomy in dogs. C.V.Spain et al. JAVMA Vol 224,
No3, Feb1, 2004.
Canine Reproduction. Peggy Root DVM. Article for the Puli club of America
http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf ... uction.htm
Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete. C Zink 2005
http://www.caninesports.com/Spayneuter.html



But the neutering is only a small part of this and most of the dogs will be neutered anyway. The real nub is not addressing individual troublemakers and helping them if necessary, or rather finding them people who will help them. Few people actually enjoy having an unruly dog (though there are some) but either don't know that it is possible to improve their dogs' behaviour or else haven't a clue how to or where to go to achieve it. If you have good trainers in the area, maybe offer them some free publicity.
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MPbandmom
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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by MPbandmom » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:02 pm

I do generally agree with Ari's assessment of dog parks. But, I think they can be improved upon at least to some extent. The committee provides guidance as well as labor for special fundraising activities. They are also expected to keep an eye on things to see that things stay safe, clean, and otherwise maintained.

There is a good trainer in the area and I have been asked to contact her for some possible assistance with a basic training event in exchange for some free publicity.

Thank you for the links Nettle.

The thought has occurred to me to put together a one page listing of resource references to post at the dog park at least for starters. Then if the powers that be wish to make additional copies available as handouts they will have it all prepared and organized.
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.

MPbandmom
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Re: How to put this nicely or leave it alone?

Post by MPbandmom » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:28 am

The below is what I have come up with. It covers about 3 1/2 pages of a word document with some variety in font sizes and bold print that didn't transfer in the copy to here. I could probably do some more research into some of these areas. I will admit to lazily copying and pasting the recommended reading and reproduction information from this forum. (Thanks Nettle, Minkee and Jacksdad) Is there anything glaring that should be removed or added/corrected. My original thought was a one page flyer/handout type thing, but clearly I have well surpassed that and I feel that a single page would simply be inadequate or so ridiculously crammed and with tiny print to be a turn off to even attempt to read.

Resources and References for Dog Owners looking for Positive Training advice and current best practices for health and care of their dog.


Information covering all aspects of dog ownership and care.

Whole Dog Journal has a facebook page, weekly email newsletters, and monthly mailed newsletters. They have articles which cover the whole dog.

Positively.com Victoria Stillwell trainer. Her web site also has a forum where one can get training, behavioral and general health and well being advice from top positive trainers and behaviorists in the UK as well as the US.

Positive reward based training and behavior modification.

Facebook groups/pages: Beyond Caesar Milan, BAT Behavior Adjustment Training, DINOS Dogs In Need Of Space/Notes from a Dog Walker, The Zach George. Karen Pryor, Dog Scouts of America

Youtube training videos: Kikopup, The Zach George, Victoria Stillwell, DogStarDaily

Petsmart: (References a specific trainer at a specific local Petsmart) , for a positive, clicker based trainer who regularly attends the Karen Pryor Clicker Expo.

Information on Diet:

The Dog Food Advisor regularly tests and evaluates commercial dog foods and rates them with a star rating system.

Rawlite Yahoo group for raw feeders.

Fun things to do with your dog:

AKC American Kennel Club and UKC United Kennel Club offer a variety of activities like Obedience, Rally, Lure Coursing, and Agility which are open to all breeds and mixes of dogs. One must have a registration number from the organization one is participating with.

Local all breed training clubs often offer classes in things like agility, obedience, and scent work. ***** is an AKC Kennel Club and ******* is UKC based. Always observe classes before signing up to be certain the trainer uses training techniques that are positive and reward based.

Barn Hunt One must register with Barn Hunt of America to be able to participate in trials. Barn Hunt titles are recognized and can be registered with the AKC and UKC.

Weight Pull There are a couple of different organizations that run weight pull events.

Flyball, Discdogs, Dockdogs, Treiball,

Dog Scouts of America based on the idea of Brownie Girl Scouts’ try it badges. Dogs can participate and earn badges for a wide range of activities, from well recognized dog sports, to painting, water play, and health and safety to name a few. Best of all, dogs and owners can enjoy a week of camp or a partial week or mini-camp.

Pennsylvania Sled Dog Association This may seem like a long ways away, but there are members in Northern Virginia who enjoy scootering, bikejoring, and canicross with their dogs as well as traveling to where there is snow and sledding and skijoring. See also Dogs Love to Run and Dogscooter.com.

Recommended reading General Dog Knowledge:

Author Patricia McConnell
Other end of the leash http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... h-your-dog
"Not so much a training book as in a how to teach sit, stay, down, but a great book to start for understanding dogs."

Tales of Two Species http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... s-dog-book
"Collection of essays that cover in brief a wide range of topics of general knowledge."

Author Jean Donaldson
Oh Behave!: Dogs from Pavlov to Premack to Pinker http://www.amazon.com/Oh-Behave-Pavlov- ... 615&sr=1-7
"Another Collection of essays that cover in brief a wide range of topics of general knowledge."

Author Karen Pryor
Don't Shoot the dog http://store.clickertraining.com/dontshootdog.html
"Clicker training and understanding learning process and methods. somewhat academic in tone, but not dry reading in my opinion."

Author Suzanne Clothier
Bones Would Rain From the Sky http://flyingdogpress.com/Merchant2/mer ... ry_Code=BB
A personal viewpoint on how we should work with dogs.

Author Turid Rugaas
On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals
"Great for learning a bit of dog language with some nice stories."
Recommended Reading Basic Dog Training

Author Ian Dunbar
Before & after getting your puppy (also sort of available in the internet http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/di ... g-textbook)
"Great for socialization and bite inhibition and it sort of challenges to really think about what you are getting/have gotten yourself into with a puppy."

Author Patricia McConnell
Family Friendly Dog Training http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... ining-book
"A do it your self basic 6 week program or can be used to complement a class given by a 'pro'"

Author Jean Donaldson
Train Your Dog Like a Pro http://www.amazon.com/Train-Your-Dog-Li ... 615&sr=1-1
"Comes with a companion DVD and teaches you how to train your dog."

Author Victoria Stillwell
It's Me or the Dog: How to Have the Perfect Pet http://positively.com/store/books/it-s- ... t-pet.html
"Been a while since I read this one, but memory is that it actually covers both general knowledge and how to train."

Author Pat Miller
The Power of Positive Dog Training
"Explains the basics of positive reinforcement and clicker training and gives a nice 6 week plan with good instructions to teach your dog great tricks while building a good relationship."

Recommended Reading Reactive Dogs (aka fearful dogs and fear aggressive dogs)

Author Patricia McConnell
FEISTY FIDO! Help for the Leash Reactive Dog http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... eisty-fido
a quick and easy read. covers briefly what is going on and then dives in with what you can do.

Treating Dog/Dog Reactivity This is a DVD and is from a recent half day seminar Patricia gave. It represents some of her latest thinking. Definantly more expensive than the books, but worth every penny if you can or willing to spend for it. http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... tivity-dvd

Author Ali Brown
Scaredy Dog! Understanding & Rehabilitating Your Reactive Dog http://www.scaredydog.info/
goes into more depth what is going on and what you can do without being dry and academic.


Separation Anxiety

Author Patricia McConnell
l'll Be Home Soon http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... on-anxiety
been a while since I have read this one, but the preventive suggestions where very helpful with Jacks very, very mild SA.

Author Nicole Wilde
Don't Leave Me! Step-by-Step Help for Your Dog's Separation Anxiety http://www.phantompub.com/DontLeaveMe.htm
I don't really like suggesting books I haven't read when it comes to some subjects. helping out dogs with issues such as SA and reactivity being one of those cases. However, Nicole is a expert blogger for Victoria and Patrica sells this book of her site and has had good things to say about in her blog, so I am taking a chance and listing it anyway.
Reproduction spay/neuter

For studies on early neutering and its effect on health, check out studies by Dr. Kutzler, Laura J. Sanborn, and as below:


Complications Resulting from Sterilization/Contraception techniques –a list of research articles
http://nal/usda.gov/awic/pubs/SpayNeute ... ations.htm
Long term risks and benefits of early age gonadectomy in dogs. C.V.Spain et al. JAVMA Vol 224,
No3, Feb1, 2004.
Canine Reproduction. Peggy Root DVM. Article for the Puli club of America
http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf ... uction.htm
Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete. C Zink 2005
http://www.caninesports.com/Spayneuter.html
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.

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