Victoria talks about episode 7

[Tenzin]

I couldn't resist looking up some David Mech references on wolf hierarchies. I thought I'd summarize for others who are interested in this stream...

In very quick skimming I found these interesting points from Mech's recent work:

"In captive packs, the unacquainted wolves formed dominance hierarchies featuring alpha, beta, omega animals, etc. With such assemblages, these dominance labels were probably appropriate, for most species thrown together in captivity would usually so arrange themselves."

"In nature, however, the wolf pack is not such an assemblage. Rather, it is usually a family including a breeding pair and their offspring of the previous 1-3 years, or sometimes two or three such families. the adult parents guide the activities of the group in a division-of-labor system in which the female predominates primarily in such activities as pup care and defense and the male primarily during foraging and food-provisioning and the travels associated with them."

"As offspring begin to mature, they disperse from the pack as young as 9 months of age. Most disperse when 1-2 years old, and few remain beyond 3 years. Thus, young members constitute a temporary portion of most packs, and the only long-term members are the breeding pair. In contrast, captive packs often include members forced to remain together for many years."

Based on these points, I would suggest that most interacting groups of dogs are more like an artificial, captive group of wolves than like a natural wolf pack, and therefore likely to form hierarchies in which the "alpha, beta, etc." dominance labels are appropriate.

Wikipedia summarizes Mech's recent work as follows:

"...the traditionally described hierarchy in wolf packs does not actually exist. He no longer uses the word "alpha" because "It falsely implies a hierarchical structure in which a wolf assumes a place in a linear hierarchy." Mech also states that dominance is rare in wild wolves. Instead of "dominance" and "submission", he uses the terms "assertiveness" and "passiveness."

it goes on to say:

"While the majority of research to date indicates that domestic dogs conform to a hierarchy around an Alpha-Beta-Omega structure, domestic dogs, like their wild wolf counterparts, also interact in complex hierarchical ways."

My conclusion: the hierarchy/dominance rank model of dog behavior is still probably a useful concept in understanding dogs' interactions with one another and with their human cohorts, although of course this doesn't mean we understand their psychology 100% or can have 100% perfect communication with them.

I'll save Internet research on chicken hierarchies for later!

[LindaM]

Tenzin, thank you so much for this fascinating information. I would love to read more. Can you let us know from which publication/web site you pulled these great quotes?

I too, have noticed fluidity in the dominance patterns of my three dogs, but never took the time to figure out why - I think I thought it was just an anomoly and that possibly other dog packs work more like the traditionally described alpha pack. Thanks, DrMeg and Missymae for the excellent insights.

LindaM

[Tenzin]

[quote="LindaM"]Tenzin, thank you so much for this fascinating information. I would love to read more. Can you let us know from which publication/web site you pulled these great quotes?quote]

Linda M:
Here is a link to a good summary article:
http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_d ... status.htm

The Wikipedia page on dog societies is another source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_society

And there's also an interesting Wikipedia article on the "alpha roll" - which was popularized by the Monks of New Skete, not really by Cesar Millan. In at least a couple of entries earlier in this forum I've seen people mix up this aggressive "alpha roll" with "taking the alpha role," which ideally is done without using any physical force (for example, Victoria sometimes suggests people pretend to eat some of their dog's food before giving it to them, because leaders (alphas) alphas eat first).

[revoleiggod]

JD saying "good girl" or giving a ball is positive reinforcement with a secondary reinforcer. Laurie giving a treat is positive reinforcement with a primary reinforcer. Same procedure, different stimuli. Funny thing is, neither of them seem to realize that they are using the same procedure. Ironic, really.

We are NOT trashing JD, you dig? Read each post more closely in the thread and I think you will understand.

Dr Meg, I think you might be a bit confused as well. It appears Laurie DID know they were the same thing. In fact, she says to JD, "it's the same thing," and he said it wasn't. I remember this distinctly. You should go back and review the episode again.

[Gershep1]

And there's also an interesting Wikipedia article on the "alpha roll" - which was popularized by the Monks of New Skete, not really by Cesar Millan. In at least a couple of entries earlier in this forum I've seen people mix up this aggressive "alpha roll" with "taking the alpha role," which ideally is done without using any physical force (for example, Victoria sometimes suggests people pretend to eat some of their dog's food before giving it to them, because leaders (alphas) alphas eat first).

Ah, the Monks of New Skete --- jerk the collar, jerk the collar. They have beautiful GSDs and spend a lot of time with the dogs, but I was very disappointed in their one size fits all training method.

As to the "alpha role," Victoria and Cesar Millan are not far apart. Both advocate "claiming" whatever is the problem and taking the alpha role from a dog's point of view.

What we haven't seen in the USA yet on It's Me or the Dog is Victoria dealing with a truly aggressive large dog that is trying to attack her instead of a visitor or member of the family. That could have been on UK seasons of the show we haven't seen. I would like to see, and learn from, Victoria's method of dealing with it when she is the one the dog is attacking.

[Tenzin]

I'm no big fan of Monks of New Skete as trainers, although I think they're breeding great dogs and do great puppy socialization. To be fair to them, they have publicly "disavowed" the "alpha roll" technique because they say it was being misused by people who don't know how to do it, on dogs who don't need it. Unfortunately, the damage was already done -- far fewer people know about the retraction than about the original promotion.

[Rescueteam]

I am appreciative that Victoria has informed us that the judges do not get to view any of the footage of what goes on with the contestants and only have that snap shot in the judging ring to base decisions on. This is a very important piece of knowledge in the viewers forming opinions and I think should be noted on the TV show for clarification value.

My questions or comments are...

1. Why did that other judge feel compelled to reference CM in prasing JD for his performance?
2. Did she (this other judge) have knowledge that JD does not only uses positive reinforcement,rewards,treats,praise, but also uses corrections with his dog and thus referred to CM rather than another all positive dog trainer who would accurately not fit/represent his mold or style of training?
3. Why do you think the producers edited the show to make it look like Victoria was focusing her dislikes and concerns about JD and appeared did not appreciate his dogs performance?
4. Are we to assume from what has been written that Victoria and the other judges have absolutely no prior knowledge of JD's or any other contestants training methods?


My assumption however flawed is based on only what I have read and gathered at this point.


If the judges have no significant knowledge of how these dogs are trained than why did the one judge choose to reference CM in prasing JD's performance and not someone like Victoria or for that matter Victoria herself? I also think it was decieptive and of poor taste for the producers to make the viewers think that Victoria was directing her opposition ,concern, or displeasure with JD as it seemed to do for
IF I were Victoria I would be very very upset and possibly consider walking away from the show.


But I am also curious as
had the other judge in her praise of JD made reference to any other of the many famous positve only dog trainers that could have been used
or Victoria herself I could understand the reflex to set the record staright by Victoria that she does not adhere to or agree with JD's Training methods or style in a passionate effort to educate the public of that critically important difference to a lessor degree.

I am still confused I must admit. In all honesty I am not sure in this case simply by invoking CM's name in reference to a praising gesture to JD in itself warrents the response that I saw and can only assume that something is going on behinf the scenes that we as viewrs are not privey of.


just my honest opinion of course from what I observed


I hope that does not get me pronged. lol

[Mattie]

The only people who can answer your questions are the producer/director of the show itself. They make the decisions on what or what not to show not Victoria or any of the other judges.

I think it is very unfair of you to continue to ask questions of Victoria that you know she is not in a position to answer, or are you a troll just come to cause trouble?

[Rescueteam]

Mattie do you think that my question in this case is ill logical?

What is your thoughts about what I said other than accusing me of being a troll because i bring up some good points?


lets talk about it and not resort to name calling if you please.

cheers

[emmabeth]

Can we please stay nice guys?

Mattie did not call you a troll, she asked if you were one, merely here to cause trouble. There is a difference and its an important one since we are frequently plagued with all manner of trolls, and often waste our time only to later find out that the person was just here to wind us all up.

Since Victoria is not involved in either setting up the tasks/challenges on the show nor in the production of it, there will be questions to which she does not have the answers and those questions would be better directed at the makers of the show.

Question 4 has afaik, been answered already, no the judges are not aware as i believe the only footage they see is the actual challenge itself and not the preparation.

The other three questions would be better directed to the other judge in question and the production team for the show.

[Mattie]

The only people who can answer your questions are the producer/director of the show itself. They make the decisions on what or what not to show not Victoria or any of the other judges.

You are asking questions that Victoria or any of the panel can't anwer but you are making it out that Victoria isn't willing to answer them, that is an attack on Victoria.

As I said in an earlier post, ask the producer/director of the program, that is where I would go if I wanted to ask questions of any program, I wouldn't ask those that took part in it, especially when it is impossible to know what is in the producer/directors mind.

You will say they are good points, you are asking them, to me they are not good points because you are asking the wrong person.

[Rescueteam]

I do not see anywhere where I am attempting to make it out that Victoria is not attempting to answer questions.

fo arguments sakes I will just let this rest as is with no further comment as I believe I have made mine and have nothing else to add.question, or comment on concerning the issue.

such for the art of inferring

cheers

[Mattie]

Rescueteam, you keep asking questions that you know can't be answered on here but when I tell you to ask the people who can answer them you take offence. Your persistance on these questions is coming across as someone who it trying to cause trouble which is why I asked if you were a troll.

[Rescueteam]

Mattie you seem to want or need to have the last word so be it. I made one post on the subject and added my twist to it and if you feel that I am somehow being persistant then so be it. I see nowhere that I am offended by anything possibly other than your trouble causing troll comment/question.

mY comments and points are clear and again why bother rehashing the issues again at this point?

you may have the last word again.

cheers

[BoardHost]

Rescueteam,

Most of your questions have been answered already elsewhere on this forum by Victoria or myself. Here goes again:

1. Why did that other judge feel compelled to reference CM in prasing JD for his performance?

Who knows? Ask her.

2. Did she (this other judge) have knowledge that JD does not only uses positive reinforcement,rewards,treats,praise, but also uses corrections with his dog and thus referred to CM rather than another all positive dog trainer who would accurately not fit/represent his mold or style of training?

This has been covered. Victoria has said that she and JD had gone back and forth regarding his training philosophy (with which she openly disagreed on camera) throughout the shooting of the first 7 episodes, but those exchanges did not make it into those episodes. Wendy (the other judge you reference) would have been well aware of this exchange since she was there when Victoria and JD discussed it every time. As to why she chose to reference CM, again, who knows? Ultimately, why does it really matter, out of curiosity?

3. Why do you think the producers edited the show to make it look like Victoria was focusing her dislikes and concerns about JD and appeared did not appreciate his dogs performance?

Who knows? Obviously, they thought it would be good for the episode.

4. Are we to assume from what has been written that Victoria and the other judges have absolutely no prior knowledge of JD's or any other contestants training methods?

This is the same question as the earlier ones.