What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

[delladooo]

That's funny Della, Jasper has no problem toileting on grass, but he refused to go on Astroturf when we were in a holiday cottage that had it!

We think she doesn't like concrete and I have no idea what Laufey deems appropriate to pee on. They're all quirky I guess. Laufey'll pee against something (either plant for street furniture), squat on grass or stick his leg in the air at nothing (the latter is what caused MiMi to be in the way)

[JudyN]

I'm just back from the vet as Jasper was still very lame this morning. He suspects an infected nail bed and has prescribed a course of antibiotics. Jasper did wrench the nail bed a couple of weeks back and it bled a little but seemed OK afterwards, but it could have been rumbling under the surface and then flared up after he had a run with another lurcher last week. There could be something muscular going on which would benefit from anti-inflammatories, but the vet would rather try one medication at a time. And it'll be a lot easier to get Jasper to rest it if he's not on any medication that might reduce the pain We'll go back in a week if he still has problems.

Best of all, Jasper didn't try to kill the vet and didn't even shake - though I don't think the vet gave his foot a very close inspection as he commented that by the time Jasper's 27 he might allow him to examine him properly (I was too busy feeling him bits of fish and sausage to see what the vet was doing down below).

[delladooo]

Oh well done Jasper! Good luck not needing another vet visit.

Speaking of, mum reminded me that I was in credit at the vets after our skin issue (insurance / me paid more than needed) and said I should take him to the vets for his ear instead of treat it at home. So took him yesterday and for the consult, some ear drops and a swab it's going to cost a fortune!! Much more than what I was in credit and the worst bit is that we've just come into a new policy year so even though they said they'd put it under the same thing as his skin "thing" it doesn't help. The amount yesterday's visit is going to cost me is more than my excess so I will be claiming but just for the consult and the drops is over half the cost! He better either have lots of skin issues this year or I'm just not taking him to the vets again until I have exhausted everything I can do myself.

I'm convinced that vets do unnecessary / more expensive diagnostics if you have insurance

[delladooo]

It's been raining something awful here since about lunch time. The kids went out this morning for a run so they haven't missed much but obviously Laufey still has to go on a pee run. Well he was asleep and I was putting it off so we've only just been. I decided that instead of having a miserable time trying to get down the road, I'd just carry him. Once he was comfy (he likes to see where he's going) he's perfectly happy with this and we had a much smoother time down to a bit of grass, a pee and he walked back. Whilst obviously not ideal, I usually end up carrying him at least part way when it's raining this badly and at least he wasn't shaking like a leaf today so I figure it's an improvement.
side note, I'm not sure if it's "I don't like getting wet" or "I'm scared to go out when it's raining" but either way, he doesn't like the rain

[JudyN]

Whatever works, Della - though I'm glad Jasper doesn't need me to carry him anywhere

Our normal routine is that I let his tea defrost in the garage and then go in there to get it at mealtime. Recently he's sneakily been following me out into the garage. If I catch him before he gets in I tell him he has to stay where he is, and if he's just come in I shoo him back. He's not dumb, I'm sure he should have grasped that he's not meant to come in.

This afternoon he snuck all the way in, and tried to investigate the bin I put the wrappers from the raw meat in. I didn't shout at him, but I'm sure my tone of voice should have told him that I wasn't pleased. He let me shoo him back out of the garage but showed absolutely no signs of registering that he had done something wrong and I was displeased with him. Now, of course, I don't often express my displeasure at him because that's not how positive training works but I'm human, and you'd really think by now he would show some signs of, if not contrition, maybe 'Oo-er, Mum's not best pleased, I'd better be good.' I swear, this dog who seems to understand pretty much everything we say didn't grasp the meaning of 'no' until well over a year old, and evidence suggests he's forgotten it again.

I don't mind - I don't need him to slink back into the house with his tail between his legs, I just need him to go back into the house. But given the lapses in my positive approach I have, being human (particularly in the worst phases of his adolescence when I really wanted to strangle him), I'd have thought he'd have some understanding of disapproval

BTW - I know the answer is just to shut the garage door behind me and that leaving it open & not noticing when he slips in is setting him up for failure... but I keep forgetting... Or keep imagining he'll have learnt the 'rule' by now

[Nettle]

Can this be the JudyN we know and love???/

He doesn't know 'wrong' he doesn't concern himself with your approval or disapproval at some unspecified time in the future, what he knows is there is something that needs investigating that could well be to his advantage if he managed to investigate it. So he keeps trying because he perceives an imminent reward. Dogs don't give a rat's behind whether we approve or disapprove - they do what works and what gives the best reward. Unhappily for our self-respect, our thinking well of them is mostly irrelevant in their eyes. It just isn't rewarding enougfh.

I think you've been working too hard....I know you understand this concept but it has just slipped for a moment. Just shows how even the most aware of us regress to behaving like humans sometimes, because we are humans.


Chocolate cake, JudyN, and a trashy novel.

[JudyN]

Don't worry Nettle, it's not something that bothers me, and I don't expect or require him to be different. In fact I'm glad he's this way as it makes me train/manage him properly instead of waiting for him to do something wrong and then 'telling him off'. But I do get the impression that the majority of dogs do act as if they don't like their owners' disapproval, however you explain it. It really just amuses me that he is so incorrigible

He does, after all, often ask for permission before going on our bed or the sofas, even though I don't need him to. Though when we were in the holiday cottage, he asked if he could go on the bed and when told he couldn't, went to his own bed without a fuss.

I think this is just one of those situations where you feel like you have an almost telepathic understanding with your dog, and all of a sudden it breaks down & you have to reexamine your theory of his mind and motivators. In a way, Jasper is a poster boy for postive training because the way people often handle their dogs, telling them off when they do what they don't want them to do, is completely ineffective with him.

[WufWuf]

But I do get the impression that the majority of dogs do act as if they don't like their owners' disapproval, however you explain it. It really just amuses me that he is so incorrigible

Personally I think that what we often view as "respect" or dislike of a humans disapproval is simply fear. This is not to say fear to the level of terror, more that it's just "safer" if I don't do X or Y. To me it's the only thing that makes sense in the animal kingdom.

I think that dogs (like humans) have different levels of tolerance for being "told off" some are very sensitive to it and some just aren't.

It's very tempting to use this method of controlling a dog as it's super rewarding for humans (low effort and very effective on the *right* dogs) but I think that like all aversive methods the risk of fallout is too great and often the damage to the dog is not see for many years, then in older age these dogs can become "unpredictable" or "cranky". You can often spot these dogs (who've spent their lives being controlled by being "told off") by the way they carry themselves and the way they interact with humans.

For me it's far safer for everyone if the dog wants to do something because they think I'm wonderful (happy, safe and filled with magic goodies) than if they do what I want because they're not quite sure how I'll react if they don't.

There's also the risk that if you don't get the "threat" right than the dog will decide that actually they might just tell you off (with their teeth). This is also true of humans, if you ever watch 2 guys square off you can see the same thing, if the aggressor is too over the top or lacking in confidence (conviction in their ability to kick the other guys @ss) and the guy that they are aggressing against is sufficently riled up (or fearful) than there's a good chance they will come to blows.

This aspect of human/dog and indeed human/human and dog/dog interactions is something that I personally find extremely interesting, it all seems so instinctive but I wonder how much of it is actually a learned "skill"?

So for example if you took a dog (or a human) who has never experienced dangerous or stressful interactions and exposed them to a set of behaviours that could elict fear of personal harm would they react in the same way as those who have experienced these type of interactions? Are dogs born "knowing" that a growl might mean a bite will follow or is this learned by "mammy growled and then bit me"? It seems to me that there is indeed a learned componant to this but it's not something I have fully formed my thoughts on yet (as in what level of the skill needs to be learned and what, if any, of it is truely instinctive).

[JudyN]

For me it's far safer for everyone if the dog wants to do something because they think I'm wonderful (happy, safe and filled with magic goodies) than if they do what I want because they're not quite sure how I'll react if they don't.

There's also the risk that if you don't get the "threat" right than the dog will decide that actually they might just tell you off (with their teeth).

Oh yes... and more so with Jasper than for most dogs Teaching 'If I stay in the hall while Mum goes into the garage and gets my tea means I get a treat' is a darn sight more likely to work than trying to remove his head from a stinky bin once it's in there, both in terms of compliance and in terms of not getting bitten. And he has inevitably been rewarded on occasion when he attempts to steal as I can't just take what he's nicked off him. It's easy to see the speed and skill he uses in an opportunist smash and grab as evidence that he knows it's wrong, but he's just learnt when it's likely to work, and can tell how much attention I'm paying. I might try walking into the garage while looking at him all the time to see if he's less likely to sneak in behind me when he knows I can see him

I wonder if some dogs being more sensitive to 'being told off' can be to do with them recognising that not all is well in their owners' world in general. I've yet to see Jasper show me any special attention if I'm feeling down or upset, or not insist on walks if I'm ill (though truth be told I don't often get down, upset or ill). On the other hand, if I shout at someone in another room just so they can hear me, he can leap up and get snarky if I then get up off the sofa because he thinks something scary is happening. This is a bit of a problem as OH is getting increasingly deaf

[katej215]

It's easy to see the speed and skill he uses in an opportunist smash and grab as evidence that he knows it's wrong

I would say this is more about him judging what safe and not safe more than right or wrong...so he probably knows its not a safe option to steal however the pay off is so great it is worth the risk.

I wonder if some dogs being more sensitive to 'being told off' can be to do with them recognising that not all is well in their owners' world in general.

i'd agree in terms again them seeing their world as safe or potentially unsafe. Hattie is super sensitive, she's never been told off as such, however I've only got to curse under my breath at something (totally unrelated to her) and if she's in earshot I guarantee she'll run and hide...does make me check myself when i want to curse or shout at something when i know she's in the room

This is a bit of a problem as OH is getting increasingly deaf

this is definitely a bloke thing!

[JudyN]

I would say this is more about him judging what safe and not safe more than right or wrong...so he probably knows its not a safe option to steal however the pay off is so great it is worth the risk.

Yes - what I meant is that it can look like him understanding right and wrong. Though in his case it's not a case of safe/not safe as if he tries and fails there is no negative consequence. So more a decision as to whether it's worth the effort.

this is definitely a bloke thing!

In OH's case it's more of a drum & bass player thing Doesn't stop him from telling me I mumble a lot though

My gut feeling is still that our approval/disapproval matters to dogs to some extent - research has shown that they attempt to read our emotions and also that they have a preference for happy faces, and as our wellbeing is so important to them it makes sense that they are concerned if we aren't happy. Possibly even more concerned if they know our displeasure is tied up with them in some way. And we know a dog is more likely to recall if you say 'come' in a happy voice than an angry one (though many owners just don't get this ) But that's not to say that it's altruistic in any sense or that it isn't just based on a knowledge that happy owners give more treats.

[Nettle]

I see dogs very much on the safe/unsafe works/doesn't work spectrum. This includes their reactions when we are ill (not safe) or yell about/make a noise over something that is not related to them.

But we humans love to make it personal, because that is how our minds work.

[delladooo]

Whatever works, Della - though I'm glad Jasper doesn't need me to carry him anywhere

I can just imagine you trying to carry Jasper anywhere with some rather errr... interesting results!

I think everything dogs do is about how it's going to affect them whether that be rewarding or dangerous (someone needs to explain to Laufey though as his self preservation skills are poor ) and I suppose we make a lot of things safe for them which is probably why they put up with us

[WufWuf]

I see dogs very much on the safe/unsafe works/doesn't work spectrum. This includes their reactions when we are ill (not safe)

I do wonder about this Nettle. I wonder how much is related to the "sickness" and how much is related to our behaviour when we are sick. See I'm permanently "ill", I have a disease that acts kind of like an auto immune disorder so my body if ALWAYS fighting an infection as far as it's concerned. As far as I can tell this does not influence how dogs treat me. I'm not sure if this is because they don't know me any other way (as in "well") or if because it's just the way I am so I don't act the same way as people who are only "sick" occasionally.

One thing I can say is that I was working in rescue after a surgery and hormone treatment that left me very well for a period of about 2 years. I pretty much knew that an ovarian cyst had regrown before I had a scan, as my right side above my hip bone became VERY interesting to any dog who could reach it. They would give it a very deep smelling the first time they met me and then look as if they were thinking about something and then carry on like normal. (There's a little more I'd like to mull over relating to the treatment by the dogs on people depending on various "issues" they had but I'm reluctant as I know lot's of people read this forum and I fear that it's a bit too shiny toothed to put up here)

Honey does not seem bothered if I'm in pain or feeling the "normal" amount of rough but there's been a few occasions where I've been really very bad and bless her she's been quieter and "better" behaved. I really don't know what to think about that as with her "issues" it would seem that she should be more on edge as I should be less safe.

[Erica]

Today is bath day!



He did much better with the force dryer today. Still not a fan, but didn't start shaking when I turned it on like last time. (I tried to take it slow last time and he wasn't having ANY of it, so I stopped quickly.) I shaved his face, the base of his tail, undercarriage, and one foot. Next on the list are the other feet, then I'm shaving him down to probably 3/8" all over (except his tail and topknot, which will be left longer, and his chest). Short summer clip for three reasons - one, he pees on his front legs and his chest and the short fur will hopefully be easier to spot clean; two, it gets HOT here; three, ticks.

I'm having lots of fun learning and practicing grooming him, and he really is patient when he's on the grooming table.