emmabeth wrote:Yeah... but if we work without the clicker, hes less enthusiastic, and bummed out if the rewards are low quality. It really does seem as if its the clicker that really makes the deal for him - if I try to reward with say, crusts of bread (tiny bits, crumbs really!) he's not interested. Pick up the clicker and he's right there, hes totally into it! Weird old boy!
bear with me, I know much of what I will say next you know, but I am going to say it anyway to help you and others follow my thought process.
The clicker -
Until we give it meaning, generally speaking the clicker has no meaning to the dog. when a dog first hears a clicker the dog may try and orientate to it, look for the source of the sound, maybe even startle a little at first. if all you ever dog is click, click, click at whatever interval you chose to, assuming the dog isn't sound sensitive (at issue out side this discussion) the dog will habituate to the click and eventually ignore it.
But if paired with food...click, food, click, food, click, food etc, the dog learns that the click predicts something. in this case food. this, in case anyone doesn't know is simple classical conditioning at work. think Pavlov's bell causing dogs to salivate.
Sequence of events -
I recently listened to a very fascinating 90 minute webinar on K9 compulsion. It has been observed that for some dogs a part of helping the dog can be as "simple" as eliminating 1 part of the sequence by preventing it from every happening again. for example of X, Y, and Z are the sequence of events that then trigger the dog to go into a compulsive behavior, simply removing X or Y breaks the sequence and opens a window to replace the unwanted behavior with the wanted. but what if X Y Z in other context isn't bad or harmful. what if a sequence of events gives the dog information about things about to happen?
Putting my thoughts together.
Rockey has a VERY strong reinforcement history of the click being followed by something high value. And you have at some point phased in the odd lower value and/or random rewards so Rockey never quite knows what to expect, except that Click = something to eat. So similar to the compulsive dogs you have an X Y Z sequence, but rather than Rockey going into an unhealthy compulsive behavior, he is conditioned to expect something to eat because the clicker is making noise. due to reinforcement history you can vary what he gets steak this time, apple the next, bread crumbs, and back to steak. But if you take out the click, then there is nothing to tell him "something cool" is about too happen or might happen. rather he is just suddenly getting old boring bread crumbs in an entirely different sequence of events. there is nothing in the click less history that tells him that ya bread crumbs this time, but steak might happen next time. On the other hand when he hears the click there IS a history that tells him that while this time bread crumbs happened, next time might be a chunk of steak. Which keeps his interest and willingness to work active.
I don't think clicks by them self are truly a reinforcer. not the way food is, or a toy. it is a classically conditioned marker. with a strong enough history the dog might work for a while without the food component but as we know with classical conditioning it has to be maintained to be effective. which is why dogs eventually show frustration and quite working on clicks alone. depending on the reinforcement history you might get to go a good long while with just clicks (not that I would actually suggest it). Steve White talked once about a chicken that due to it's reinforcement history had an extinction period of about 3000 pecks on the bar that used to deliver food, but now didn't before it quit trying.
My opinion ... for all it's worth and I am not saying I am right no if and or but.... is that IF a dog has a really strong reinforcement history of click = treat, they will appear to work for a while on the click alone and thus the click is mistaken as being a reinforcer. but It's not, rather your are simply with drawing on that big bank of reinforcement you built up, but sooner or later the dog figures out no reward is coming and goes on strike. When you eliminate the food from the click = food sequence, I currently believe you start an extinction process and you may due to history get away with treat less clicks for the short term, but eventually that banked history gets used up.
And while I do understand that you can create reinforcers other than food by using classical conditioning, those created reinforcers (which the click would technically be) HAVE to under go "maintenance" to maintain their power. food will always have a inherent power, toys and some activities may also have an inherent power, but "artificial" reinforcers loose their power IF you don't do some "maintenance" on them.
Also, because of the roll and purpose of the clicker, I am not sure why "you" (generic you, no one specific) would risk a valuable tool like the clicker by trying to use it as a "reinforcer". My opinion, leave it be what it supposed to be, a marker. The "that is what I want signal".
That is why I am not so sure that clicks are truly "reinforcers" nor do I think "you" (generic you, no one specific) should try and use them as such.
Again, just my 2 cents and thoughts.