Guest Etiquette

[OSH13]

We're currently having a house guest who uses dominance handing and is doing so with our dogs. On top of that, yesterday she took the dogs for a walk without asking for our permission or even telling us before she left.

Would you mind if a guest took your dogs for a walk without asking you first?

[JudyN]

Would you mind if a guest took your dogs for a walk without asking you first?

Yes, I would - that's absolutely unacceptable. You need to sit your guest down, explain that she cannot do this. And also that she cannot use her training methods on your dogs. If she can't accept this, I would ask her to leave.

How would you feel if you were an anti-smacking parent and a guest smacked your child? Exactly the same applies here.

[OSH13]

Thanks for the support! The guest is my MIL and H doesn't see anything wrong with this, or the fact that she punished the dog for excitedly jumping on her by kicking him.

Bottom line: we need to set a LOT of boundaries with her and the dogs is a big one (although, as I don't want her staying with us ever again it may not become an issue).

Any suggestions for gently explaining positive reinforcement techniques and the fact that we don't allow the dominance techniques with our dogs?

[JudyN]

Aaah, MILs aren't easy, are they? If you're really lucky one of your dogs will bite her, conveniently demonstrating that her techniques don't work and ensuring she never visits again... I am talking tongue in cheek there, honest!

It's hard to know what to suggest without knowing your MIL and how she is likely to react. You could simply start by saying 'We need to lay down some rules about how we manage the dog. I respect your different views on this, but you do need to respect that they are our dogs.' I would then explain that kicking a dog for jumping up can make the dog mistrust the person in general rather than associate it with what the dog did, and doesn't teach the dog how he should greet people. Reward-based training teaches the dog an alternative behaviour, e.g. a sit. Maybe say that kicking the dog is like punishing a child for doing something wrong but never actually telling the child what you do want him to do.

You could also try 'We used to do this but the dog became fearful/snappy/stressed and when we started using positive methods he became much easier' (regardless of how much truth there is in that ). Or mention that Cesar Millan's techniques (if she's a fan) are now so frowned upon that even Pets @ Home (large pet shop chain in the UK) has withdrawn his books... You could even go into the evolutionary evidence concerning using wolf packs as models for dog behaviour, the faulty studies using captive unrelated wolves that led to pack theory, and so on. Her eyes will probably glaze over very quickly but again, it may put her off visiting again

Good luck!

[Sabrina]

Hi there! Plus one to what Judy said about explaining the difference between punishing for something "wrong" (human perspective) and teaching "right" behavior! Explain that your training philosophy is to make the "right" thing (eg, what you'd like your dog to do) the most rewarding thing!

If you MIL likes to read/research, here are some posts on Victoria's main site that are so helpful:

http://positively.com/positive-reinforc ... hilosophy/
http://positively.com/positive-reinforc ... forcement/
http://positively.com/positive-reinforc ... hilosophy/

Kindly and firmly protecting your dog (even/especially from folks who "mean well") is always the way to go. Stick around here and you'll get tons of great support!

[DianeLDL]

Thanks for the support! The guest is my MIL and H doesn't see anything wrong with this, or the fact that she punished the dog for excitedly jumping on her by kicking him.

Bottom line: we need to set a LOT of boundaries with her and the dogs is a big one (although, as I don't want her staying with us ever again it may not become an issue).

Any suggestions for gently explaining positive reinforcement techniques and the fact that we don't allow the dominance techniques with our dogs?

First of all, I am surprised that your husband didnt take your side in explaining to his mother that you are using postitive training methods.
Does he take part in training the dogs? Does he also believe in the Positive training techniques?

Or does he have a problem setting limits with his mother? If so, that may have little to do with the dogs, but the way he relates with his mom, and perhaps the way your MIL relates to you.

Have there been other issues in which you and MIL have disagreed? If so, the dogs may be the pawns in a power struggle.
Often, the way she is treating the dogs may be a part of another issue.

Before talking with your MIL about Positively training and that you wont accept abuse towards your dogs, I would talk with your husband and make sure he is going to back you on this. This is important. Unless he can stand up to his mom and take your side, or at least the dogs' side in this situation, her treatment of the dogs may be a symptom of a larger problem.

Then, once he has agreed to continue to promote the positive training, BOTH of you together explain to your MIL about how your training techniques differ and use the information you have already received from Judy and Sabrina.

I don't mean to sound like a psychologist, but I have come across similar situations, but over other issues like how to treat the kids as someone else mentioned,

Good luck and let us know how it works out,
Diane

[jacksdad]

Thanks for the support! The guest is my MIL and H doesn't see anything wrong with this, or the fact that she punished the dog for excitedly jumping on her by kicking him.

wow, not acceptable at all in my opinion. training philosophy aside, not her dog, not her place to take this kind of action.

as said, MILs can be "fun" sometime and very trying. I wish you all the best in this and I know you are going to get good advice. this is help request I am probably not the right person to ask specifics from...i would be highly undiplomatic in your place. So, the best I can do for you is to confirm you are right to want to stop this, your not being unreasonable to expect your MIL to conform to your rules, your way of doing things with your dog.

[OSH13]

Or does he have a problem setting limits with his mother? If so, that may have little to do with the dogs, but the way he relates with his mom, and perhaps the way your MIL relates to you.

BINGO! That's a topic for a different forum. But I really wanted to see what like-minded people think about her behavior. H participates extensively with the training and he would NEVER do what MIL is doing with the dogs, but he's completely petrified of his mom.

wow, not acceptable at all in my opinion. training philosophy aside, not her dog, not her place to take this kind of action.

I agree fully! It's good to know I'm not over-reacting in thinking it's completely out of line (I often wonder if I'm doing that), but I've found her actions to be completely unacceptable in many ways.

[DianeLDL]

BINGO! That's a topic for a different forum. But I really wanted to see what like-minded people think about her behavior. H participates extensively with the training and he would NEVER do what MIL is doing with the dogs, but he's completely petrified of his mom.

wow, not acceptable at all in my opinion. training philosophy aside, not her dog, not her place to take this kind of action.

I agree fully! It's good to know I'm not over-reacting in thinking it's completely out of line (I often wonder if I'm doing that), but I've found her actions to be completely unacceptable in many ways.

I thought that might be part of the problem. I agree that it is unacceptable behavior to kick or even knee a dog.

It is great that your husband agrees with your positive training methods. The key is to let your MIL understand that it is your home and your dogs, and that you and her son expect her to respect your training methods.

I would also do some MIL training. For example, the dogs really shouldn't be jumping up on her if it makes her uncomfortable. Perhaps, some household management to keep the dogs in another room before they start jumping and use treats to help them slowly get used to your MIL being in your and their home. They may just be wanting to greet her, but the basis of Positive training (and someone correct me if I am wrong) is to train the dogs to do the behavior you want them to do. Rather than focus on what you don't want, let MIL know that the focus is on training them to do what you want.

So, instead of jumping on your MIL, what other behavior can you replace it with. For example, reward for a sit, or give them a toy or chew bone to keep them occupied. Look under the training section for examples of how to decide what behaviors you want to encourage and then reward to encourage the behavior. Others on the forum can direct you to any thread that may be relevant and helpful.

Once your MIL sees how you can replace the jumping up behavior with a more acceptable behavior using reward, she may come around to your way of training. As they say, seeing is believing.

You want to have a good relationship with her and by showing her how to encourage acceptable and appropriate behavior, it will go a long way for good relationships without your husband feeling he is in the middle.

So, check out the forum threads, decide what behavior you DO WANT, and then train and reward for the behavior.
(One thing to keep in mind, too, is that your MIL is older and grew up with the outdated ideas of punishing. Also, it might have freaked her out to have the dogs jumping on her, and kicking may have been her first and immediate without thinking reaction, ie. get these dogs off of me. So, training the dogs in her presence and teaching her a better way to react in such a situation will bring peace and more importantly keep your dogs safe.
Also, did I miss what breed of dogs you have? If they are large and jumping, it can be very intimidating.

We have a chihuahua mix, and my husband was walking him outside my parents' home when my cousin drove up. She is so scared of dogs (had a bad incident as a child) that she wouldn't get out of her car until my husband had out our dog back into his crate.

Good luck and let us know how it works out and what behavior you decide to train your dogs to do instead of jumping on people.

Diane

[OSH13]

Thanks for all your help and support, Diane.

Yes - we've done all those things. And we've used positive reinforcement to help the dog overcome food aggression with other dogs and separation anxiety. We've also worked tirelessly to help him become more calm and he follows the relax command ("chill") like a champ. He also knows to sit when he wants attention and, if the person still doesn't give attention, then to lay down.

However, he became extremely afraid of my MIL and was repeatedly lunging at her (even with a leash on) when she was in the same room. H agrees the dog was afraid of MIL because of her yelling and "old-school" training methods, but never said a word to her (and I fully believe the boundary needs to come from him, though I'll back him up). Long story short, we're seeking professional help in this matter (both from a couple's counselor who will help us talk about setting boundaries with MIL and from a behavioral vet since last month the dog also attacked our other dog without warning, reservation, or identifiable cause).

MIL just left this morning and we're still reeling!

[Nettle]

OSH, you and OH are wonderful for your positive attitude to addressing this - I wish you every success!

[Swanny1790]

But I really wanted to see what like-minded people think about her behavior. H participates extensively with the training and he would NEVER do what MIL is doing with the dogs, but he's completely petrified of his mom.

I'll apologize in advance if this upsets you, but don't you think it's about time your little boy OH grew a pair and started acting like a man? Of course he loves his mom, but his loyalties should be to you. After all, he married YOU. It's time for him to declare his independence, act like an adult, and have a heart to heart shouting match with dear old mom.

At our place, potential guests are warned in advance that our life-style revolves around the dogs and that there is a reason for everything we do with them. No one goes into the dog yard fence without direct supervision by Trish or I. You hit or kick one of my dogs and you are GONE - no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Being up-front, we've never had an issue. Explaining the "house rules" straight up seems to have prevented having to deal with this sort of issue.

[Ari_RR]

Hmm.. Yeah. +R works with people as well as with dogs, and prevention of undesired behavior is better than correcting it.. Be it a 4-legged creature or 2-legged MIL...
Set your MIL for success!!!

[OSH13]

I'll apologize in advance if this upsets you, but don't you think it's about time your little boy OH grew a pair and started acting like a man?

I couldn't agree more!!! I really appreciate hearing it, actually! A week before she arrived for her week-long visit she asked to stay with us and he didn't even have the guts to tell her, "Let me check with my wife." On top of the way she treated the dogs she did a LOT of inappropriate things (e.g., parking in the driveway and blocking me in and him out, taking over the kitchen table with her possessions and leaving them there when she wasn't using them, clearing a shelf in the fridge for her stuff, etc.). As if all that wasn't hard enough, it was hard to convince her that +R was the best method for dog training (rather than her methods of intimidation and "dominance").

[DianeLDL]

I'll apologize in advance if this upsets you, but don't you think it's about time your little boy OH grew a pair and started acting like a man?

I couldn't agree more!!! I really appreciate hearing it, actually! A week before she arrived for her week-long visit she asked to stay with us and he didn't even have the guts to tell her, "Let me check with my wife." On top of the way she treated the dogs she did a LOT of inappropriate things (e.g., parking in the driveway and blocking me in and him out, taking over the kitchen table with her possessions and leaving them there when she wasn't using them, clearing a shelf in the fridge for her stuff, etc.). As if all that wasn't hard enough, it was hard to convince her that +R was the best method for dog training (rather than her methods of intimidation and "dominance").

It sounds like she has been using "dominance" on H and by taking over your home.
You and H need to discuss "house Rules" for anyone who visits. And, everyone who visit needs to know the rules. And that includes taking over areas that are not for them. She must have had a place that you set aside for her things.
I hate to say it, but I would have move her stuff off of the kitchen table. They do not belong there.
Yes, I would have set aside an area in the refrigerator for her to use. That is being a hostess, just like clearing out drawers and providing closet space.

And the RULES must include how to interact or not interact with your dogs. It sounds like the dogs picked up on your dislike of her behavior which may have led to the attack on her. I know that when we visit my parents, our dog has taken a dislike to my dad since dad is always yelling at me in front of the dog. Sandy is very protective of me.
Yet, with my mom, he is the sweetest thing and is comfortable being around her.
So, dogs sense the tension going on around them.

And, It NOT okay to invite someone, anyone to stay for a whole week or even a weekend, without discussing it with you first. That is basic communication for couples.

I hoe she is gone by now. If so, it is time to have a good talk with H.

Diane