Book Recommendations

[Nettle]

I am mentoring a would-be behaviour trainer who is coming over from the Dark Side and is reeling from the discovery that I am not in favour of anything associated with Pack, Dominance and Alpha. As she is really struggling with this concept while I am so far in that I could talk all day about it, can anyone recommend a book which explains things concisely? I think she would find that easier than talking to me, and then we can chat afterwards about the nuts and bolts of it.

[Sanna]

You've probably thought of these already but I thought 'In Defence of Dogs' by John Bradshaw (more in-depth and scientific) and 'The Other End of the Leash' by Patricia McConnell (covers lots of other stuff, but has a really good chapter on this if I remember correctly) might both be helpful?

[JudyN]

Clever Dog by Sarah Whitehead is very clear and easy to read: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clever-Dog-Unde ... +whitehead

[Nettle]

Thank you. Have passed these on. I've borrowed John Bradshaw and just finished it, and I actually own the Sarah Whitehead so thanks for the reminder. I'm a great fan of P McC.

[Dibbythedog]

I like Sarah Whiteheads book too.

Dogs by the Coppingers is the book recommended for those doing behaviour courses , Its solely about the origin ,behaviour and evolution of dogs . Its a great book but being scienced based I found it hard going .

Dominance , Fact or Fiction by barry Eaton , easy to read and explains why dogs arent out to dominate us . James Oheare's The Dominace Theory is more science based and of course harder to read.

One of my favourite good all round books to read that covers what is a dog , breeds , how dogs learn , training , emotions etc is Dog Secrets ( What your dog wishes you knew ) by David Ryan , The secret is there are no secrets , any one can traín their dog if they have the knowledge. Its easy to read but not dumbed down and its funny too.

[Nettle]

A lot of Coppingers' (both of them) work is inaccurate. Unfortunately it remains the cornerstone of a great many courses. By the time the student knows enough to pick out the gold from the dross, that student has surpassed the 'masters' in any case.

I particularly like their observation (made more than once) that dogs' jaws are far weaker than cats'. And they really should have studied hunting dogs and dogs hunting before they wrote about them.


Thanks for the other recommendations - I shall find time to read those. Much appreciated.

[Dibbythedog]

Oh dear , scrub that one then ! They are tutors for COAPE courses too.
I need to re read it as I read it a while back and know more about dogs now .

Ali

[jacksdad]

You've probably thought of these already but I thought 'In Defence of Dogs' by John Bradshaw (more in-depth and scientific)

I am going to have to think about some of the books/DVDs I have being reading/watching see if I can come up with a list for you Nettle.

On the Bradshaw book, Not sure in Defense of dogs is still available, but his "dog sense" book of course is.

http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Sense-Science ... =dog+sense

and off the top of my head, it is probably the best book to debunk pack theory, misapplied dominance concepts, alpha and a bunch of other stuff.

don't know if your pupil is ready for this one yet or not, but on the dominance question I am more and more coming to feel that any study of the question needs to start with this paper
http://www.jstor.org/stable/4535117

it talks about what is or isn't dominance at a "high" level. Doesn't get too much into species specifics, but it helps lay the foundation.

The more I learn, the more the I test concepts with questions like...

"when you say "be dominate", what does that mean/look like and how does it teach a better sit"? same with alpha. answer can't be fuzzy and needs to be supported.
or

"why can a whale trainer get a killer whale to do what they do without force, pain, fear" if they can do that with a killer whale (aka wild animal), why do we need to use force/pain/fear on a domestic, biddable, docile animal breed to work for and live with us.

Don't know if that helps. but I am finding that people have a hard time supporting dominance/alpha/pack theories when pressed with questions like this.

I will give book suggestions some thoughts.

[WufWuf]

On the Bradshaw book, Not sure in Defense of dogs is still available, but his "dog sense" book of course is.

"In Defense of Dogs" is what "Dog Sense" was released as in the U.K and Ireland

[jacksdad]

ah...that would explain a few things...

[Nettle]

Devil's Advocate:

I can answer the 'whale' question, because it actually releases a shoal of 'red herrings' (sorry ) regarding dog training.

Sea mammals when performing only do what they would do anyway (eg leap out of the water) but this behaviour has been cued and rewarded so that they respond to the cue by performing the action. Then they get the reward.

It isn't the end of the world if they don't do it.

Many of us don't realise that there are times when the mammal isn't in the right frame of mind to put on its performance, and in those cases, other mammals fill in the gap. The paying public is no wiser.

With domestic dogs, we expect unnatural behaviour on cue, some of which has the potential to be risky to the dog, some of which is uncomfortable to the dog, some of which stops the dog having fun. It very often IS the end of the world if they don't do it. Sometimes we can't offer a comparative reward, never mind a better reward.

Therefore training dogs the way we train sea mammals is fine for many dog behaviours but not all.

[jacksdad]

Devil's Advocate:

I can answer the 'whale' question, because it actually releases a shoal of 'red herrings' (sorry ) regarding dog training.

Sea mammals when performing only do what they would do anyway (eg leap out of the water) but this behaviour has been cued and rewarded so that they respond to the cue by performing the action. Then they get the reward.

It isn't the end of the world if they don't do it.

Many of us don't realise that there are times when the mammal isn't in the right frame of mind to put on its performance, and in those cases, other mammals fill in the gap. The paying public is no wiser.

With domestic dogs, we expect unnatural behaviour on cue, some of which has the potential to be risky to the dog, some of which is uncomfortable to the dog, some of which stops the dog having fun. It very often IS the end of the world if they don't do it. Sometimes we can't offer a comparative reward, never mind a better reward.

Therefore training dogs the way we train sea mammals is fine for many dog behaviours but not all.

But from what I understand, a smart whale trainer will KNOW when their whale isn't in the mood and will not ask their whale to perform and thus risk the whale learning they can perform only when they are in the mood. in this way it's like our advice with dogs... do not let your dog off leash if you don't think you can get them to return.

not everything asked of whales in a whale show is a natural behavior. For example, when is the last time a whale out in the wild was documented letting a human "surf" on their back, or launching a human off their nose into a swan dive.

I do realize there are limits to the comparison, but the main point is about the "NEED" to use force or fear to train. The point is, IF you can get a multi thousand pound whale, living in the water, while you are on land, to perform a behavior on cue, then why does one think that a dog needs force or fear to be trained. If the whale blows you off, it isn't like you can put a shock collar on them to "correct" them for "blowing you off", yank their "leash", physically push them into doing what you want. That is the point I am getting at. It is a subtle (maybe too subtle) way of trying to say..."learn to actually train and education your self on sound training concepts, and you won't need to use pain/fear/force to get your dog to do what you want".

[Nettle]

Oh yes, I do understand the points you were making - just I have to do this Devil's Advocate thing in order to train people to question everything

When something goes wrong with a sea mammal, or a trainer misjudges the mood...... pretty grim.

That's why 'management' is just as important as 'training' - for those times we need 100% success. We need to know that, whatever training ethos we use - there is no such thing as 100% reliability from pure training.

[jacksdad]

maybe a better "whale" example is the dolphins that the Navy trains to work in open water and return to the trainer. talk about a recall.

[Nettle]

Yes, that is truly impressive.