Dog Conformation

[bendog]

I've seen a few of the sloping back ones round here, but there also seem to be quite a lot that are pretty straight backed, although VERY big, and long backed.
EG:

[Nettle]

That looks so nice I'd be tempted to say it was part malinois or even greyhound. I haven't seen a purebred that good for about 30 years.


Wouldn't it be great if it was purebred and so would mean there were still healthy ones about.

[bendog]

I will try to find out his breeding and if he is KC reg He's one of the ones I walk 3x a week.

[gwd]

I read somewhere that it's the American bred GSD's that are over-sloped in the hind quarters, but that English bred dogs have a straighter conformation making them not only much more attractive, but more importantly, more physically sound. Is this true?

as far as show lines, the American dogs actually have straighter backs than in the uk and in Germany. ........in the US, yes, they slope but they're not the roach back of that you'll find in the uk and Germany.

crufts 2013



Westminster breed winner 2013



german show dog

[bendog]

^^^^those are hideous
Who decided that makes a good show dog

[Fundog]

Oh, those poor, poor dogs. I wonder if they are in pain?

[Nettle]

Makes me feel queasy.

For a short while some years ago I helped a young trainer get started with her class lessons (I only do 1 to 1). One lovely lady client had the most terribly made GSD that she wanted to do Obedience with. But the dog's hips were shot, and 'sit' was painful and awkward for her. What did her owner want? Sit Sit Sit, all the time. She was in total denial and just could not see it, and the dog was a darling and desperately wanted to please. There was a dog that might bite 'for no reason' one day. I don't know what happened long-term as I was only there for a few weeks.

[Suzette]

Just looking at those pictures turns my stomach and hurts my heart. To purposely and systematically breed dogs to this type of conformations is, to me, nothing short of animal abuse. Unconscionable!

Bendog, that picture you posted is gorgeous! Oh for every GSD to be so lucky. (Though as Nettle says, probably not a purebred, but oh so lovely and healthy looking!)

[thunder_monkey]

I'd be interested to see what people think of "my" (actually other half's parent's) GSD's shape. She's definitely all GSD (they have her pedigree papers) and to my, untrained, eye she doesn't look too bad, but there's a lot of fur there confusing the issue! http://www.flickr.com/photos/68801992@N ... 8060375234
I haven't noticed her having any obvious problems, but don't want to be asking her to sit before taking her out to play (she gets very excited and tends to jump all over the door if you let her) if it's likely to be painful for her.

[Nettle]

Not really possible to tell from those photos, but she seems to have a straight back in the only profile one.

[thunder_monkey]

Thanks Nettle, she's always so keen to be with us or running about that it's quite hard to get a proper profile picture of her! I'll see if I can get some better ones when we're down there next weekend.

[DianeLDL]

I am confused. This is the first time I had heard about these sloping backs on GSDs.

How are they are the able to work with police and military if they are bred in such a way?

Am I correct in thinking that those bred for show are bred differently than those who actually work for police and military?

If so, why do they do this to dogs bred for show?

It doesn't make any sense to me. Can someone explain?

Hate to sound stupid, but this is all new to me.

By the way, thunder_monkey, your dog is beautiful. Great that you have the perfect place to run and exercise. They need lots or room to run, don't they?

Diane

[Suzette]

ThunderMonkey, your dog is beautiful. I am not trained in conformation, but she looks very nice to me. Love how fluffy she is!

[emmabeth]

Show GSD's are shown quite differently to any other breed in that they are run around the ring (large ring) right out at the end of a long leash iwth the owner directly behind them and various family members/kennel staff/kennel supporters OUTSIDE the ring cheering, waving treats, rattling tins, bags, toys etc, to encourage the dog to run.

This is to show off the massive overtrack created when the dog trots, by that topline - or that is what they think.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people within dog breeding (not just GSD breeding) who don't actually understand how natural, static conformation (ie, the way a dog is put together and stands naturally) translates to movement.

A long back with an arch to it WILL increase the distance a dogs hind leg can reach under it - we can see this in greyhounds for example - but greyhounds run naturally (not on the end of a 10ft string) and flat out, and they stand naturally.

German Shepherds are shown stacked - that is they are trained to adopt a particular position. Originally that position was quite similar to the way most horses are shown, stationary, to a judge - stood square but with one hind foot slightly back, so that you can see both hind legs.

Over the years this stance has been exaggerated, selecting for dogs who stand that way naturally, and then putting the emphasis on that stance above other things (such as soundness in the hocks). So they are breeding to fulfill a PICTURE.. and that picture has become warped over the years.

So now we have a dog who not only stands like a banana, one foot really far forward, one hind leg far back, in a painful looking crouch - but when they MOVE if you look from behind you will see a very exaggerated hock twist.

Yes those hind legs DO reach a long way under the dog, and a long natural stride does mean the dog puts less effort into movement (the goal was a dog who can trot endlessly, covering a lot of ground for minimal effort)...

However since hte idea that the dog had a normal unexaggerated topline when stood normally and only achieved that 'crouch' when stacked (ie put into a position) was lost, the movement GSDS NOW have is not effortless at all, twisty hocks, scrabbly front ends, wobbly back ends... all requires masses of effort!


There are LOTS of dogs out there who do not have a completely flat, horizontal, level, top line - thats fine, the spine is supposed to have a slight arch to it, a dogs spine is a very flexible thing and it is supposed to flex and move as the dog moves. In fact... I'll go so far as to say those breeds that do have a TOTALLY flat topline, horizontal spine, static AND moving, are conformationally incorrect as well (but almost none do, even those who are said to, you will see there IS a curve!). One breed that springs to mind is the St Bernard (which also these days suffers from extremely straight hind legs).

When you think about backs... think about bridges. You are spanning the distance between shoulder and pelvis, not only that, but firstly the dogs head is a counterweight, it is the heaviest freely moving part of the dog and must be counterbalanced by what lies behind it. Then you have the organs suspended below the spine.

Think about how many bridges are arched - in fact up until modern steel and concrete construction, when bridges were built out of lumps of stone or bricks even... they arched, because an arch is a VERY strong structure, a horizontal span is not nearly as strong (hence needing reinforced concrete). If an arch is not suitable these days, we suspend bridges from above (and even then arches are probably invovled somehwere!)

So yes, those bred for show are bred to fulfill a mental picture. Unfortunately they are now a caricature of what they should be.

Working GSDs don't look like the show versions... however... more and more there is a move now to Belgian Shepherds (Malinois predominantly but I think Tervs and Groenendals as well) - why? These dogs are MUCH lighter and more athletic, and much MUCH less over engineered and fiddled with!

[DianeLDL]

Emmabeth,

As always, your explanations are clear and are very helpful. Thank you for explaining this.

I have been interested for two reasons:
First, when my husband was in the US Marines, he was a dog handler and had a Belgian Malinois. And going on the bases and watching what these military and police dogs have to do, I was very concerned that any GSDs are in good health.

Secondly, i have suffered all my life from scoliosis of my back. Sadly, when I was younger, they didn't have the technology and surgeries that they have today. So, over the years (I am nearly 62), it has gotten so bad that at this point my lower right rib touches my right hip and often when sitting they overlap. So, I understand all too well the problems that can happen when a spine that is not in normal alignment.

It reminds me of the fashion models who do all kinds of things to make it in the modeling world. I don't know if you are old enough to remember Twiggy.

I realize that those who show their dogs care about their dogs and want the best for them. But, to know that dogs including the GSDs are bred to meet a particular show type is hard for me to comprehend. I just hope that these owners make sure their dogs get whatever medical care they need and to do their utmost for them. I know what chronic pain is from an u even spine that affects one's gait.

Thanks again for your clear explanation.

Diane