Problems unraveling

[Wilkie]

I think some dogs pick up on it faster, but I still wouldn't trust a dog not to take food that they shouldn't. I wouldn't trust a child not to take a cookie or touch the cake that's sitting out in the open.

i certainly wouldn't trust mine if i were out of sight.......in the case of the purloined pb&j, i'd set it down and walked into the kitchen. i was not out of sight!

it was my fault, the girl i had in for breeding wasn't a house dog. however, while i had her for the week i figured she could enjoy the same privileges my gang had.

Well your home was a 5 star hotel. She got first dibs at the all you can eat buffet!

[gwd]

I think some dogs pick up on it faster, but I still wouldn't trust a dog not to take food that they shouldn't. I wouldn't trust a child not to take a cookie or touch the cake that's sitting out in the open.

i certainly wouldn't trust mine if i were out of sight.......in the case of the purloined pb&j, i'd set it down and walked into the kitchen. i was not out of sight!

it was my fault, the girl i had in for breeding wasn't a house dog. however, while i had her for the week i figured she could enjoy the same privileges my gang had.

Well your home was a 5 star hotel. She got first dibs at the all you can eat buffet!

i guess i could have handed her the galss of milk also.

seriously though, it really sounds as if your family is being unreasonable with their expectations about her progress in such a short time.

[ClareMarsh]

seriously though, it really sounds as if your family is being unreasonable with their expectations about her progress in such a short time.

Yep, and like Judy says some dogs, well they're always going to pinch food left lying around. I don't understand why people get annoyed by it, yes you don't want them taking straight off your plate as you're eating but if you leave food unattended you only have yourself to blame. Crikey, plenty of human adults couldn't be left alone in a room with a plate of biscuits without sampling one

My little titch Ted is pretty good about not taking stuff if you put something on the floor he sees it as fair game (why wouldn't he), my mum had him snoozing on her lap recently as she ate a bowl of yoghurt and muesli, the phone rang, she put Ted and the bowl on the floor, picked up the phone and turned round to see Ted happily sampling the yoghurt I'd gone out but on my return she relayed the story, laughing as she did and saying it was her fault but she didn't think

Hard as it is I think you're going to have to manage your family and dog encounters and not let their expectations of your dog bother you if you can

[Wilkie]

i guess i could have handed her the galss of milk also.

seriously though, it really sounds as if your family is being unreasonable with their expectations about her progress in such a short time.

They expect her to be able to sit in the room while everyone eats, but completely ignore it. If I remember correctly, Victoria does say that this is actually teasing the dog because it's like someone eating in front of you, but you're not allowed to have any. It isn't respectful at all. As for leaving food unattended, that's just begging for trouble.

[Wilkie]

seriously though, it really sounds as if your family is being unreasonable with their expectations about her progress in such a short time.

Yep, and like Judy says some dogs, well they're always going to pinch food left lying around. I don't understand why people get annoyed by it, yes you don't want them taking straight off your plate as you're eating but if you leave food unattended you only have yourself to blame. Crikey, plenty of human adults couldn't be left alone in a room with a plate of biscuits without sampling one

My little titch Ted is pretty good about not taking stuff if you put something on the floor he sees it as fair game (why wouldn't he), my mum had him snoozing on her lap recently as she ate a bowl of yoghurt and muesli, the phone rang, she put Ted and the bowl on the floor, picked up the phone and turned round to see Ted happily sampling the yoghurt I'd gone out but on my return she relayed the story, laughing as she did and saying it was her fault but she didn't think

Hard as it is I think you're going to have to manage your family and dog encounters and not let their expectations of your dog bother you if you can

They want to have a relationship with her, but don't want to put in the time and effort it takes to build a positive relationship. The way they teach her is wrong yet they think positive, reward based training is stupid. They believe in the dominance theory because "friends" feed it to them. Those "friends" tell them that everything animals do leads back to dominance and that humans are supposed to ensure that we are the masters or else animals will walk all over us.

Today when my dog growled at someone (her fur wasn't standing up and she didn't look angry, but she did look really uncomfortable), I was told that she was walking all over me and I needed to break her of that or else she'll attack me or someone else. She growled at the man, but she took a treat out of his hand. I was a little wary of him because the treat was tiny and I didn't get a good look at what he was giving her because he put it in her mouth before I could see it clearly. Sophie growled at him before and after. I was trying to lure her calmy out of the situation, but the manager of the rescue dragged her by her harness and tossed her into another room and shut the door. Whenever we're there, Sophie has to stay in another room and all she does is bark and whine even though she can still see me. She HATES the room, but she isn't allowed out.

[rachel540]

I don’t mean to sound blunt and apologies if this message does but I’ve got to say this whole situation seems very strange.

Who was the man, did it happen at the rescue and was it the staff that told you your dog is walking all over you? Do you HAVE to go back to the rescue for some reason? Why are they taking the lead and your dog off you into a room?

This is YOUR dog and you need to stop letting people tell you what to do with her.

If she is growling it is a warning that should not be ignored, (a warning for what I don’t know but she is communicating she’s not comfortable) therefore take control of the situation and walk away. This is only my opinion but I feel it is our responsibility to ensure our dogs have positive experiences, have trust in us and make them feel safe. Listen and read their body language and act upon it. People really have no business in overriding that, whether you know them or not.

If your dog is growling at certain things there will be a reason for it and this may need further support in how to handle it, but until then, take note of when it happens and avoid those types of interactions, for example – is it just men? Is it when she’s on lead? Is it in an unfamiliar place? The list of possibilities is endless.

If you are not comfortable with someone feeding your dog treats (I’m certainly not for a variety of reasons) you need to say Stop! I would rather you didn’t give her treats. Make something up if you have to (just to be polite) such as “she is allergic to a lot of things” or “she’s had more than enough today” laughing it off.

You said you tried to lure her away. I dont' have experience of handling a growling dog, but i think if it was me I would just walk away or start jogging (for Pepper this usually snaps her out of a trance - look Mummys running!! - a rare occurance) with an encouraging “come on” and she will follow you, once she’s away and with you, give her a treat and a fuss. I tend to carry a squeaky toy and a whistle when out so if she is in a trance they might help?

Again I’m sorry to sound blunt, this is a touchy subject for me and I don’t like people telling me what I should and shouldn’t do with my dog. I know her better than anyone and I make the decision that I think is best for her. I certainly wouldn’t let someone take her off me and out of my control, whether it’s a professional or even a vet, without knowing exactly what they were planning on doing and certainly not without me agreeing to it first. I am open to discuss advice, etc to help me make the right decisions for my dog, but there is a difference between being lectured and being advised.

Out of curiosity may I ask how old you are and where do you live? And why is dominance such a big issue for people? Have dogs recently taken over that part of the world?

Do keep us updated as things go on. I find this forum useful to not only gain advice and support but to vent and reflect on things, I hope you do too.

[minkee]

I'm with Rachel on this one! If ANYONE tried to grab my dog, I would most certainly step in and tell them firmly not to. She is MY dog and I will deal with her - not YOU!

Out of curiosity may I ask how old you are and where do you live? And why is dominance such a big issue for people? Have dogs recently taken over that part of the world?

Jokes aside, the answer to the first 2 questions might be really useful for us to gauge your situation, and how best keep your dog safe.

[gwd]

Have dogs recently taken over that part of the world?

they've certainly taken over MY house!!!

[jacksdad]

Today when my dog growled at someone (her fur wasn't standing up and she didn't look angry, but she did look really uncomfortable), I was told that she was walking all over me and I needed to break her of that or else she'll attack me or someone else.

complete BS. you need to listen to the growl and figure out what is causing her to growl and then address that, not the growl.

I actually encourage my dog's growling in the sense I respond to it appropriately and I have actually been known to reward a growl if it is a calmer responds than he used to give when X happens. once growling is the norm, I reward the next calmer signal of "I don't like/am not comfortable" . I do this combined with other stuff of course, such as LATs or Watch Me or simple Stealth BAT as well as getting distance. which often means just continuing on with our walk verse staying around where my dog isn't feeling comfortable/safe.

Rachel is 100% correct. don't stop your dog from growling. a dog that isn't growling is biting "out of the blue".

She growled at the man, but she took a treat out of his hand. I was a little wary of him because the treat was tiny and I didn't get a good look at what he was giving her because he put it in her mouth before I could see it clearly. Sophie growled at him before and after. I was trying to lure her calmy out of the situation, but the manager of the rescue dragged her by her harness and tossed her into another room and shut the door.

doesn't sound like you allowed this, but if you did I would not be going about socializing her with people this way. The better way is for her to show interest in the unknown person at the distance and pace she is comfortable. if to start all you get is a look. That is GREAT. Reward that. then wait an see what she does next. if she turns and leaves and show no interest in the person after just looking. LISTEN TO YOUR DOG. don't force her to do more. On the other hand if she then takes just a step towards the person. Reward that. And so on until she is rubbing, touching, sniffing etc. the person. As of yet, the unknown person SHOULD NOT be touching her or putting any pressure on her. At this time all rewards need to come from you. The reason is by coming back to you for the reward she gets relief from being close to someone she isn't so sure about. when the unknown person gives the "reward" it's not really a reward, rather is falls into bribing the dog to come closer and do something that the dog isn't ready for. All is well while the dog focuses on the treat, but once the treat is gone, then the dog often realizes "OH CRAP TOO CLOSE" and that is where you get barking/growling/lunging and in worse cases, biting.

As for the shelter manager, WAY, WAY out of line. Did I mention the shelter manager was out of line? Because the shelter manager was WAY, WAY out of line. This would NOT have gone over well with me had this been my dog. NOT only was it out of line because the dog was not the shelter manager's, the shelter manager just confirmed your dogs need to growl at unknown people. The shelter manager MIGHT have just made helping your dog be ok with strangers that much harder.

Whenever we're there, Sophie has to stay in another room and all she does is bark and whine even though she can still see me. She HATES the room, but she isn't allowed out.

sounds like you need to leave Sophie at home when you go to the shelter.

[Wilkie]

I don’t mean to sound blunt and apologies if this message does but I’ve got to say this whole situation seems very strange.

Who was the man, did it happen at the rescue and was it the staff that told you your dog is walking all over you? Do you HAVE to go back to the rescue for some reason? Why are they taking the lead and your dog off you into a room?

This is YOUR dog and you need to stop letting people tell you what to do with her.

If she is growling it is a warning that should not be ignored, (a warning for what I don’t know but she is communicating she’s not comfortable) therefore take control of the situation and walk away. This is only my opinion but I feel it is our responsibility to ensure our dogs have positive experiences, have trust in us and make them feel safe. Listen and read their body language and act upon it. People really have no business in overriding that, whether you know them or not.

If your dog is growling at certain things there will be a reason for it and this may need further support in how to handle it, but until then, take note of when it happens and avoid those types of interactions, for example – is it just men? Is it when she’s on lead? Is it in an unfamiliar place? The list of possibilities is endless.

If you are not comfortable with someone feeding your dog treats (I’m certainly not for a variety of reasons) you need to say Stop! I would rather you didn’t give her treats. Make something up if you have to (just to be polite) such as “she is allergic to a lot of things” or “she’s had more than enough today” laughing it off.

You said you tried to lure her away. I dont' have experience of handling a growling dog, but i think if it was me I would just walk away or start jogging (for Pepper this usually snaps her out of a trance - look Mummys running!! - a rare occurance) with an encouraging “come on” and she will follow you, once she’s away and with you, give her a treat and a fuss. I tend to carry a squeaky toy and a whistle when out so if she is in a trance they might help?

Again I’m sorry to sound blunt, this is a touchy subject for me and I don’t like people telling me what I should and shouldn’t do with my dog. I know her better than anyone and I make the decision that I think is best for her. I certainly wouldn’t let someone take her off me and out of my control, whether it’s a professional or even a vet, without knowing exactly what they were planning on doing and certainly not without me agreeing to it first. I am open to discuss advice, etc to help me make the right decisions for my dog, but there is a difference between being lectured and being advised.

Out of curiosity may I ask how old you are and where do you live? And why is dominance such a big issue for people? Have dogs recently taken over that part of the world?

Do keep us updated as things go on. I find this forum useful to not only gain advice and support but to vent and reflect on things, I hope you do too.

I volunteer at a rescue, but there are different shelters that kind of "assist" the rescue in order to get more animals into homes and make room for other animals. The woman that runs the rescue, the people that run the shelters and the trainers that work with the dogs claim to use positive methods to work with the animals, but they seem to have missed the mark. Their methods are strict, damaging and absolutely ridiculous, but they don't see it. I enjoy being around the animals and treat them quite differently. I get insults for treating the animals kindly. That's why I was called a marshmallow and I was told that I "baby" animals instead of being dominant and not allowing any animal to "walk all over me". The dominance theory has huge supporters at the shelters and at the rescue. I have told them on more than one occasion that I do not subscribe to the dominance theory because of research on the subject and how it doesn't make any sense to m whatsoever. I was even told by the manager that the only reason why Sophie is attached to me and has been since I first met her is because she's trying to dominate me because I'm weak. I on the other hand think it's because she senses that I'm nice to her. I want her to do what I ask because she wants to, not because I demand it.

I have to bring my dog with me and I'm finding it hard to follow the rules of the rescue, but protect my dog and stand by my beliefs at the same time. When there, I have to shut Sophie away and listen to her constantly bark and whimper. She even hates the room and I think it's putting a lot of stress on her. She gets yelled at all the time and there is a can that "has to be shaken" whenever she barks and scratches/bites the door to get out. I have work I have to get done so she's stuck with the staff and the trainers that treat her very differently from how I treat her. I decided that after meeting with the different dog trainers, I wouldn't be using any of them ever again. I instead want to work with Sophie on my own, but unfortunately, she still has to put up with the people at the rescue training her using their methods. She still has a lot of issues that have to be addressed, but I work with her little by little. She has to be with me at all times, which doesn't help with her separation anxiety whenever I can't be with her.

When she was growling at the old man, she was off her lead and just had her harness on. The old man went in the room where she was and let her out. I wasn't at all thrilled. The manager gave me a dirty look as if it was my fault that the guy let her out even though I told him that she was mine and she couldn't be out. I didn't even want him giving her whatever it was that he gave her, but the manager let him. When Sophie kept growling at him, he just kept trying to play with her and pet her. The manager told me to control my dog and take her out of the room, which I was trying to do when she grabbed Sophie and tossed her back iinto the room. All four paws were literally off the ground. If he didn't let her out, she wouldn't have been growling at him. He was pushing his luck and freaking her out. The whole situation was out of control, but I felt like I didn't have any because I'm just a volunteer.

[JudyN]

I have to bring my dog with me

Why?

If the shelter treated my dog like that I would stop volunteering. I know you're concerned for the other dogs' welfare too, but you have to put your own dog first.

[Wilkie]

Sophie is very unsure about certain people, but okay with others. From the way she was acting, I don't believe she was going to bite the man (I don't even know who he is. I think he was looking to adopt or just wanted to see the animals). But I do think she could have if he continued to violate her space and force himself onto her. I couldn't tell him to leave because I'm just volunteering, but the manager could care less and thought it was all my fault for not controlling my dog. I wasn't inviting him to see Sophie, he decided to walk over to the room she was in and let her out. He said, "Oh, its okay. I have dogs at home." It wasn't okay and I was clearly not happy. He never even asked if it was okay to see her, he just did whatever he wanted and acted like I didn't exist. He was even trying to play with her while I was trying to remove her. I felt like I had no control over the situation because it was a total mess that could have easily been avoided. When Sophie was tossed into the room, all four paws were off the floor. I was in shock and didn't say a word. After that, I was lectured for something that I didn't even do. I tried calmly getting Sophie out of the room, but no, she ended up getting grabbed because I wasn't being forceful enough.

sounds like you need to leave Sophie at home when you go to the shelter.

Leaving her home isn't an option at this time or else I would. She needs constant supervision because she gets into everything and she doesn't do well in crates (she moves the crate while in it and chews it). I don't think she particularly enjoys small spaces or being locked in there alone. I don't have anyone to watch her on the days that I go so the only option I have is to bring her with me. I do get her outside as much as possible and play with her when I'm not busy. With her seperation anxiety, she won't play with her toys unless I'm in the room with her. I bought her a bully stick and she didn't chew it unless I was sitting in the chair across from her.

[Wilkie]

I have to bring my dog with me

Why?

If the shelter treated my dog like that I would stop volunteering. I know you're concerned for the other dogs' welfare too, but you have to put your own dog first.

All of the shelters and other rescues work together with this rescue. If I quit going than I wouldn't be able to volunteer anywhere in the area because they all believe in the same thing

I can leave my other dog home and she's perfectly content with chilling out because she old, but Sophie is young and all over the place with energy.

[JudyN]

I can leave my other dog home and she's perfectly content with chilling out because she old, but Sophie is young and all over the place with energy.

In that case I wouldn't volunteer for any of them, at least until she can be left. Think of it as maternity leave

[rachel540]

Hi Wilkie. Oh dear you really have gotten yourself between a rock and a hard place, I must say I don't envy you, this must be so hard. Although a lot of the problems that you have been having, the reasons are starting to become clear

Their methods are strict, damaging and absolutely ridiculous

You are saying it yourself, they are damaging.

she's trying to dominate me because I'm weak

And I'm sorry but if your manager said this to you she is a bully! How dare she say you are weak

She even hates the room and I think it's putting a lot of stress on her. She gets yelled at all the time and there is a can that "has to be shaken" whenever she barks and scratches/bites the door to get out

Again you are saying it yourself, she hates the room and is having negative experiences which will only add to her anxiety.

She still has a lot of issues that have to be addressed, but I work with her little by little. She has to be with me at all times, which doesn't help with her separation anxiety whenever I can't be with her

I think each time you take her to the shelter it is a step backwards in her progress. There are better ways to deal with separation anxiety and alot of people on this forum have had experience in this, and will help with advice and support. You need to build up to a point were she can be left alone. You might be taking her to the shelter but she is apart from you locked in a room while you are working, seeing you but unable to reach you, this must be extemely stressful.

The whole situation was out of control, but I felt like I didn't have any because I'm just a volunteer

If your manager is giving you dirty looks and expecting you to act when your dog is "misbehaving" then you should be taking control of the situation, she is obviously expecting you to, whether you are "just a volunteer" or not, this is your dog at the end of the day, nothing to do with your manager or anyone else.

No one can tell you what to do, only share what we would do should we be in that same situation, and I would not take my dog to that shelter and expose her to such stressful situations. Take a time out from volunteering and work on your dogs seperation anxiety until you can eventually leave her at home.