Problems unraveling

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gwd
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by gwd » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:42 pm

Wilkie wrote: although I wouldn't mind giving them a piece of my mind :mrgreen:
i've thought of doing that a time or two, but after reflection, i find i don't have any i can do without......i can't afford to spare any brain cells! :lol:
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Wilkie
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by Wilkie » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:14 pm

gwd wrote:
Wilkie wrote: although I wouldn't mind giving them a piece of my mind :mrgreen:
i've thought of doing that a time or two, but after reflection, i find i don't have any i can do without......i can't afford to spare any brain cells! :lol:
My time is better suited for training. I feel satisfied by the fact that I have accomplished a few things with Sophie that I couldn't have done with aversive methods or trying to "dominate" her. Maybe I could've accomplished them the other way, but it would've been for the wrong reasons. The stuff we worked on with the help of everyone here on the forum has been fun and I look forward to continuing this goal. The road is very long, but we'll get there. I guess I will have the last laugh :D

Wilkie
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by Wilkie » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:58 pm

Sophie continues to bite me, grab my arms and legs and pull my close. I don't care whether she's being playful or not, this is completely inappropriate behavior. She isn't breaking the skin, but it hurts and she bites down hard. She was just jumping on me and grabbing my arm. I asked for help, but the person I asked said that he had more important things to do and not to complain to him about Sophie because I wasn't stopping her (I was, but he only entered the picture after the fact). My arm is sore and I need some advice on what I can do about her getting out of control. I'm short, she can be a bit much to handle when she's jumping all over me and biting. I'm already stressed out and exhausted, but I don't want to bother anyone. It's raining out and my lawn is too slippery for Sophie and I to play (we had a drought so the grass roots never went into the ground and now sheets of grass get ripped up). It's pretty messy. I don't have anymore bully sticks to keep her occupied because she ate the two that she had.

jacksdad
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by jacksdad » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:17 pm

don't forget the mind games thread viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1135 for ideas

also this thread might give you some impulse control ideas viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7588


As for "stopping" her. a couple things come to mind.

you can do a time out. BUT in this case the time out is you remove your self. here is the how to viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13934

something else you can do is to maybe start carrying around a tug or chew toy and when you catch her about to start doing her mouth on you, BEFORE she gets her mouth on you, instruct a sit, and the reward is a chance to chew on something "legal".

might not be the best ideas, but the concept I am going for here is.....

If she just comes up to you and starts to grab at you, or paw at you or bite at you...."TIMEOUT". BUT you don't touch the dog, acknowledge the dog etc. YOU disappear. biting, grabbing, jumping makes ALL inter actions STOP and you disappear for a few seconds.

OR

If you are working/playing with her and you see she is working up to garbing, biting, jumping. SIT...ya, good dog...here is something you CAN bite/chew/tug on.

Wilkie
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by Wilkie » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:20 pm

jacksdad wrote:don't forget the mind games thread viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1135 for ideas

also this thread might give you some impulse control ideas viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7588


As for "stopping" her. a couple things come to mind.

you can do a time out. BUT in this case the time out is you remove your self. here is the how to viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13934

something else you can do is to maybe start carrying around a tug or chew toy and when you catch her about to start doing her mouth on you, BEFORE she gets her mouth on you, instruct a sit, and the reward is a chance to chew on something "legal".

might not be the best ideas, but the concept I am going for here is.....

If she just comes up to you and starts to grab at you, or paw at you or bite at you...."TIMEOUT". BUT you don't touch the dog, acknowledge the dog etc. YOU disappear. biting, grabbing, jumping makes ALL inter actions STOP and you disappear for a few seconds.

OR

If you are working/playing with her and you see she is working up to garbing, biting, jumping. SIT...ya, good dog...here is something you CAN bite/chew/tug on.
Because my yard is so big, reaching the gate to do a time out seems really pointless. By the time I get to the gate Sophie is getting into more trouble. I brought a ball out because she loves tennis balls. If I didn't throw it, she'd jump at me and bite me. She's relentless when it comes to biting. She bit my back when I was walking. I now have a swollen bruised arm from her biting me today. Having a toy doesn't stop her from biting me because she gets out of control quickly. She starts running around grunting and goes right towards me. It's hard to tell whether she thinks it's a much better game to go after me or if she's truly being aggressive. Either way, she gets carried away too fast. I was sitting at the table and she was biting my shoulder and pulling on my clothes. We go outside constantly and I take her for walks, but she's still biting. I have tried doing everything that has been advised to me, but Sophie has selective hearing and does whatever she wants. I didn't want to, but I had to kick her off of me because she was so out of control. That's when I asked for help. After that, she ran a few laps around the yard grunting and wanted to go inside. Being outdoors with her is not fun, I dread the time that I have to take her out because she turns a great time into a miserable, dangerous time. Like I said, I'm small so if she goes after me, I have to protect myself. She runs faster than me and a calm moment turns horrible really fast.

I would hate to put a muzzle on her in order to allow her to run around, but not go after me. She keeps eating plants and dirt and she ate animal poop that definitely wasn't hers. I try to stop her in case she picks up stuff that could be harmful, but she thinks it's a game.

If she wasn’t so aggressive with her playtime, she would be fine. I can handle her being hyper and needing lots of exercise, but her chewing on her lead, her harness (you’d be surprised by how she can chew her harness while it’s on her), and going after me are unacceptable.

bendog
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by bendog » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:39 pm

I would have a lead on her in the yard then. If she starts biting you can either stand on the lead so she can't jump at you . Or tie the lead to the fence or something to do your timeout.

End any games with toys before she gets carried away. Even better use the toy as a reward for calmness. If she gets excited "sit" "good girl" *throw ball* ours all automatically sit now before I throw a toy for them.

Wilkie
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by Wilkie » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:57 pm

All of the toys that Sophie has played with and grew bored of doing were: A rubber ball that you stuff food inside of. I put spray cheese and sausage in it. A cardboard roll that took her a bit to rip to shreds. I didn't get it for her, she got it herself. She tore her beloved squeaky toys apart. She enjoys ripping things apart.

Wilkie
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by Wilkie » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:17 pm

bendog wrote:I would have a lead on her in the yard then. If she starts biting you can either stand on the lead so she can't jump at you . Or tie the lead to the fence or something to do your timeout.
I have 6 ft. wooden fencing so tying her to it wouldn't be an option. I can try stepping on the lead, but how much of it should I step on without hurting her or getting bitten because it's a 6ft. lead? I have been working with her on going potty while attached to a lead because she doesn't like going when attached.
bendog wrote:End any games with toys before she gets carried away. Even better use the toy as a reward for calmness. If she gets excited "sit" "good girl" *throw ball* ours all automatically sit now before I throw a toy for them.
Toys make her very excited and making them a reward would either cause her to be overstimulated and jump or bite me. She doesn't get a little stimulated, she goes 110% with how she's feeling. Each emotion is all the way with her. My problem is trying to get her to calm down so that she isn't going crazy. She has no self-control. Sophie is really smart, but a complete train wreck when it comes to training and I think she needs major behavior modification in my opinion. It has only been 3 weeks since I first got her. This is going to be a huge amount of working and I am already exhausted :( .

Wilkie
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by Wilkie » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:40 pm

Sophie never bit all of the times I visited her at the shelter and took her out to the yard there. She showed signs of seperation anxiety, but nothing else. Once she entered a home envioronment she became My Dog From Hell. That needs to be a new show since they have My Cat From Hell. I asked many questions about how she behaved at the shelter, but she's apparently a completely different dog. She's 3 Faces of Sophie! Right now, she's sleeping like an angel.

JudyN
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by JudyN » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:23 am

Is this a problem mostly in the yard, or on walks too?

In the yard, I would play games with her that mean you can stay close to the house - if she'll bring a ball back, stand by the door to throw it. If she won't, arm yourself with several balls! Then when she does bite, you can quickly go inside for a timeout. Also, if you carry something largeish like a large bucket or laundry basket, then when she comes to you with that look in her eye, you can use it to block her - not to swing at her, of course.

If you find she's worse towards the end of walks, keep them short. If she's worse in wide open areas, stick to woods, lanes, etc. If you can walk along trees or a fence then you can loop her lead round one when she starts up and give her a timeout that way. If she's off lead, you can turn and face a tree/wall/fence to ignore her. I wouldn't worry too much about where to stand on her lead - you just want her not to jump up, so it needs to be short enough when stood on to prevent her doing that.

There's nothing wrong with wearing a muzzle on walks. It doesn't matter what other people think, and you can tell them it's because she eats rubbish. It won't stop the jumping up of course, but could help you remain calmer. Alternatively, wear really thick old clothes - it's hard to remain calm when she's hurting you so much and/or damaging your best clothes.

I can't remember - have we discussed what she eats? Some food can make dogs a bit hyper.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Wilkie
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by Wilkie » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:56 pm

JudyN wrote:Is this a problem mostly in the yard, or on walks too?

In the yard, I would play games with her that mean you can stay close to the house - if she'll bring a ball back, stand by the door to throw it. If she won't, arm yourself with several balls! Then when she does bite, you can quickly go inside for a timeout. Also, if you carry something largeish like a large bucket or laundry basket, then when she comes to you with that look in her eye, you can use it to block her - not to swing at her, of course.

If you find she's worse towards the end of walks, keep them short. If she's worse in wide open areas, stick to woods, lanes, etc. If you can walk along trees or a fence then you can loop her lead round one when she starts up and give her a timeout that way. If she's off lead, you can turn and face a tree/wall/fence to ignore her. I wouldn't worry too much about where to stand on her lead - you just want her not to jump up, so it needs to be short enough when stood on to prevent her doing that.

There's nothing wrong with wearing a muzzle on walks. It doesn't matter what other people think, and you can tell them it's because she eats rubbish. It won't stop the jumping up of course, but could help you remain calmer. Alternatively, wear really thick old clothes - it's hard to remain calm when she's hurting you so much and/or damaging your best clothes.

I can't remember - have we discussed what she eats? Some food can make dogs a bit hyper.
I guess this is going to be a trial and error process. I'll try the bucket blocking idea. At this point, I am willing to do whatever it takes to turn this problem around, even if it's lessoned to once in a while. She only acts this way in the yard and on a smaller scale indoors. When on walks, she's reactive towards people, other animals (her fur stands up, she barks, growls and lunges) and fearful of anything on wheels (she runs and hides). She's very aware of her surroundings. I'm not sure how long she was left out on the streets before she went into the shelter, but I think she still feels the need to act the way that she did while on the streets as a stray. She was only a puppy and still is.

Her diet consists of Purina One Beyond (the lamb and whole barley). I switched over from the cheap food that the shelter fed her. She also eats food that I cook for her, which consists of chicken, rice, veggies etc. As for treats, she gets Puperoni, Milk-Bone chewy treats, Pedigree Denta-Stix, Canine Carry-Outs, Bully Sticks, Cheese Whiz, Hollywood Stars, Natural Balance and Train-Me. I no longer give her store bought jerky because of the news articles about how it's bad. She doesn’t like cookies, but she likes the stinky foods.

JudyN
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by JudyN » Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:25 pm

OK, if she doesn't do this on walks then you should be able to work out ways of managing it in the yard - staying by the door, next to the fence so you can turn away, blocking with something, whatever. You have to be one step ahead of her, and remain calm at all costs. Honestly, my arms used to be black and blue from Jasper, but once I'd fixed on this approach I saw an improvement within days. It took a long time before it was really fixed, and Jasper will still do it on occasion if he gets really worked up, but it's no longer a problem.

I'm sure you've had advice elsewhere on the forum about her reactivity, but basically, avoid, as far as possible, anything she reacts to. If you manage to make progress with this I wonder if she may start jumping up on you on walks, but if she does that could be a good thing as she's focusing on you, not the scary thing. The approach is the same - turn away, ignore, stay calm.

Food... OK, that's quite a list of treats and snacks. Dentastix, for starters, can make dogs go a bit loopy. Purina isn't the best: check out a review here: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food- ... ne-beyond/ Have a look around that site and you should get an idea of what to look for, and some recommendations. Alternatively, if you'd like to consider a raw diet, there's loads of advice on this forum.

I would cut out all of the commercial treats. Instead, use kibble, bits of cooked meat, small bits of carrot, peas, apple... It's not guaranteed that her food is a factor in her behaviour - some dogs seem to thrive on pretty awful diets loaded with additives - but it's well worth a try.

Try these changes for a week or so and let us know how you get on.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

gwd
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by gwd » Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:46 pm

JudyN wrote:I would cut out all of the commercial treats. Instead, use kibble, bits of cooked meat, small bits of carrot, peas, apple... It's not guaranteed that her food is a factor in her behaviour - some dogs seem to thrive on pretty awful diets loaded with additives - but it's well worth a try.

Try these changes for a week or so and let us know how you get on.
i'm with judy on this one......the pupperoni and that type of thing is laden with sugar and sodium. if you're wanting something that's easily pocketed (a commercial product) there is always freeze dried liver.........and that's the entire list of ingredients, liver!

string cheese is ok too.......just not too much. .......my little b*tch also likes dried cherries. she loves them so i save those for a real high value item as i don't want her to have too much sugar, even natural fructose.

i think you'll find making up a batch of beef liver (boil it first, then put it in a slow oven for about 30 min) is actually much more economical than the pre-packaged stuff you're buying now......you can also do the same thing with chicken and then you know they're not getting a bunch of sugar and salt, as well as preservatives in the training treats.
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Wilkie
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by Wilkie » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:37 pm

JudyN wrote:OK, if she doesn't do this on walks then you should be able to work out ways of managing it in the yard - staying by the door, next to the fence so you can turn away, blocking with something, whatever. You have to be one step ahead of her, and remain calm at all costs. Honestly, my arms used to be black and blue from Jasper, but once I'd fixed on this approach I saw an improvement within days. It took a long time before it was really fixed, and Jasper will still do it on occasion if he gets really worked up, but it's no longer a problem.
I did the turning away, it was successful the first time, but the second time she ripped my jacket off of me and ran around the yard with it.
JudyN wrote:I'm sure you've had advice elsewhere on the forum about her reactivity, but basically, avoid, as far as possible, anything she reacts to. If you manage to make progress with this I wonder if she may start jumping up on you on walks, but if she does that could be a good thing as she's focusing on you, not the scary thing. The approach is the same - turn away, ignore, stay calm.
Toys and playtime are way too stimulating for her. Should I just remove playtime outdoors all together for a while and keep her on a lead?
JudyN wrote:Food... OK, that's quite a list of treats and snacks. Dentastix, for starters, can make dogs go a bit loopy. Purina isn't the best: check out a review here: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food- ... ne-beyond/ Have a look around that site and you should get an idea of what to look for, and some recommendations. Alternatively, if you'd like to consider a raw diet, there's loads of advice on this forum.

I would cut out all of the commercial treats. Instead, use kibble, bits of cooked meat, small bits of carrot, peas, apple... It's not guaranteed that her food is a factor in her behaviour - some dogs seem to thrive on pretty awful diets loaded with additives - but it's well worth a try.
I always get the small treat packages because I can't afford to do the stuff I'd like to do with her. As for food, it's hard to find something within my price range, but Purina was mentioned to me by someone at the rescue. We're still on her first bag of food since coming home. I'd like something good, but something I can afford as well. The same goes for treats. Store bought meat has just as much junk in it as dog food so maybe I'm not understanding how this works :? As for the Dentastix, Sophie has tartar on her teeth, but won't let me near her with her doggie tooth brush and flavored toothpaste.

JudyN
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Re: Problems unraveling

Post by JudyN » Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:09 pm

Wilkie wrote: I did the turning away, it was successful the first time, but the second time she ripped my jacket off of me and ran around the yard with it.
Like I said, it takes time. Even running around the garden with your jacket is boring if you just walk off indoors and shut the door behind you. If she pulls clothes off you, make sure they're firmly fastened and fold your arms firmly. And wear something really tatty (raid charity shops?) that you don't care about.
Toys and playtime are way too stimulating for her. Should I just remove playtime outdoors all together for a while and keep her on a lead?
it's a balance, as she needs to have an outlet for her energy. I'd play, but have lots of very short sessions, and have your escape route planned - but ideally, stop before she gets over threshold. Also, work on commands such as a really good 'settle' when she's in a relatively calm state of mind, and general impulse control exercises.
I always get the small treat packages because I can't afford to do the stuff I'd like to do with her. As for food, it's hard to find something within my price range, but Purina was mentioned to me by someone at the rescue. We're still on her first bag of food since coming home. I'd like something good, but something I can afford as well. The same goes for treats. Store bought meat has just as much junk in it as dog food so maybe I'm not understanding how this works :? As for the Dentastix, Sophie has tartar on her teeth, but won't let me near her with her doggie tooth brush and flavored toothpaste.
For her main food, check out the recommendations on the site I mentioned earlier: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/ I'm in the UK, but maybe someone in the US will be able to give you some ideas as to what's a reasonable price.

If she has tartar at her age, she must have had a pretty bad diet in her past :( Giving her some raw bones is by far the best thing for her teeth. I'm not sure why you say store bought meat has junk in it? That's true of processed meat, but if you buy 'just' meat - a whole chicken, a piece of liver, or whatever - then that's 100% meat with no additives. You can feed raw chicken as a meal, just cut into meal-sized portions, and maybe cook some of the meat to cut up and use for treats.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

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