Adult size of dogs

[Esprit64]

Hello--when does a puppy reach its adult physical size? Is it six months or one year? I wish to train my lab mix to do skijoring (dog pulls single skiier on a tether line), but do not want to tax puppy muscles with adult requirements.

I thought it would be appropriate to start training the dog to pull at six months, starting with light weighted items, just to get her used to pulling something, then, gradually adding weights.

[Nettle]

That's very thoughtful of you What a nice owner you are.

Different breeds mature at different rates, and bitches tend to mature slightly earlier than dogs. Neutering affects the maturity also, and if done too early will change the physical and mental development considerably.

Assuming an intact male dog, your lab mix should be fully mature at two, and could start doing light work just after a year old - but show labradors are heavier than working types, so there again you might have to wait longer. And of course, the rest of the mix has to be taken into account, because whatever else is in him/her will make a difference.

[Esprit64]

I sincerely appreciated your insight. My lab mix is presently five months old: she's part lab, border collie and some bird dog (breed unknown). My understanding is that it's best to spay before the first heat or between six to eight months of age. Would you agree? She's obviously not a show dog but is mostly lab in physical characteristics; I saw both of her parents who maxed at 55-60 lbs. (she's presently 38 lbs. at five months). She also has good chest muscles and is built more up front, which leads me to believe that she would enjoy pulling. I can already tell from play activities that she loves the outdoors, water and snow--I believe that she'll be a natural for skijoring and would love it as much as I do.

Now, Willow has averaged an 11 lb/month weight gain. If in two months, she weighs 60, should I assume that she has all parts in place or should I wait longer for psychological maturity at one year? When might it be considered safe for her to eventually pull a person? I've been considering training over the late summer (when she's 7 months and likely 60 lbs., or her max weight) with me on rollerskates--but again, would that be too soon for her?

[Nettle]

Re: spaying - there are a lot of polarised views, and everybody will tell you something different, with great sincerity

My own view is that a ***** should have one season before spaying, the reasons being that physical and mental development is tied up in hormone maturity, and if the dog (either sex) does not have the chance to develop hormonal maturity, s/he will not develop properly either physically or mentally.

Certainly my behaviourist work proves the latter - there are far more problems as a direct result of early neutering than ever you get with dogs neutered once they have grown up, or not neutered at all. So MY advice would be to wait until she is a year old if you possibly can, and if she hasn't had a season by then, wait until she has. Best time to neuter is halfway between seasons.

Regarding the work - collies mature early, labs and hounds rather later. Look at her growth plates - the knuckles at her wrists and stifle joints. When they fit the leg rather than looking huge, she has reached her leg length. When the lowest point of her chest is nearly at her elbow, she has finished her body growth. No harm in her getting the idea of pulling at around a year old, but if she were mine, I would spend that first year on general obedience training. If joints are strained while they are growing, the dog will not last as long in health as from waiting just a few months more.

Both collies and labs have an inherited tendency for joint problems, especially hips and elbows, but if you take her slowly and don't let her get overweight, she has every chance of becoming the athlete you want.

[Esprit64]

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your information. You've provided me a lot of insight and it will help me take best care of my dog. Thanks again.

[Nettle]

Looking forward to some photos when you get her going

[Esprit64]

OK, will do, but you'll have to wait six more months! Hey, thanks again for your time and info. Really appreciate it.
Best regards,
Esprit64[/img]

[Lis & Addy]

There's steadily mounting evidence that early neutering is not good for larger-breed dogs--especially if they're athleticaly active dogs. Here's a link to a recent AVMA paper--I'm not linking directly to the pdf but to the page that has links to the paper in two different pdf formats.
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10 ... 31.11.1665

Given that you want to do weight pulling, I'd definitely wait on the spaying.

Lis

[Esprit64]

Dear Lis and Addy: Thank you for alerting me to this report. It is confusing considering the risks of potential disease when to spay a certain breed of dog and at what age. I intend to discuss this report with my holistic vet. Thanks again.
Esprit64

[Nettle]

Regarding the 'potential disease' - I have kept entire dogs and bitches for many years and only once had a problem, which was an enlarged prostate in an elderly dog. This was quickly dealt with. Most of these problems dog owners get threatened with never manifest at all.

After all, you can't tell if a dog would have had a problem - only that it has or has not. I know plenty of neutered dogs of both sexes that have had problems - loads of spayed bitches with mammary tumours, and even a castrated dog with prostate cancer, which last is very rare in dogs (enlarged prostate is common and easily treated. It's even more common in human males, and you don't see them being castrated in case they develop it).

I reckon if dogs are kept fit and fed on decent food, they mostly stay healthy.

[Mattie]

Esprit64, there is a lot of hype on spaying and neutering dogs, I can understand the rescues autimatically doing this but for responsible dog owners, I can't. Bitches can get mammory tumours even if they are spayed, the chances are reduced not taken away when they are. How many seasons they have is also relevant, the less they have the less chance of them getting mammory tumours.

I would not get a dog neutered unless there was a medical reason for having this operation done. The only thing that it will stop is testiclule cancer, if they haven't got them they can't get cancer in them but everything else they can.

Prevention is better than cure, but when preventing any form of illness we should also make sure we know as much as we can about it before making an informed decision. We wouldn't get our children neutered because we were told it was good for them so why do it to our dogs.

[Lis & Addy]

Children will eventually grow up and be able to make their own medical decisions--and their own breeding decisions, too.

Dogs can't make their own medical decisions, and all their breeding is a result of human decision-making. So, yes, we make decisions for our dogs that we don't make for our kids--for their own good, and also for ours.

I'm not a fan of "You must speuter your dog instantly or you're responsible for pet overpopulation and your pet will die!" bullying, and I'm not a fan of "Speutering is unnatural and we don't do it to our kids!" either.

Look at the medical evidence (such as it is; there's still a lot to be learned), consider your own dog and your own circumstances, and use your own best judgment. Although I'll add this caveat: the medical argument against early, pre-maturity speutering of large and gian breeds certainly looks very strong, and I'd wait if at all possible.

Lis

[Esprit64]

I'm kicking myself right now seeing how easily one is led to do one thing over another relative to spaying and neutering. However, I HAVE wondered in the past why it could possibly be the "only" answer to spay and neuter pets for health. If they are born with organs, presumably because all are needed, why then must we remove them to keep them healthy when no problem yet exists? The parts should work together to keep the animal healthy, it must be something else we are doing that causes one organ to harm another, similar to the mammory tumor example.

I've lost animals to feeding them badly, those days when I assumed that "better" dog foods were superior when in fact they contained many toxic ingredients. I've learned from these experiences and since, I've fed my animals fresh meat, fruits/veggies, by reading ingredients labels or making foods myself. I rarely visit vets today.

I think it is better to start with the position of doing nothing unless something suggests otherwise. However, as laypersons, we still need to exercise due diligent caution to make sure we understand what we are doing.

[thistledown]

I'm kicking myself right now seeing how easily one is led to do one thing over another relative to spaying and neutering.

I don't know where you live Esprit64, but in the UK the major campaign for neutering en masse comes from rescues. Some vets will also add their support for neutering everything with a pulse, but not all.

I can totally see why rescues feel the way they do. Unintentionally (or maybe not) the information they provide purports to be about health risks and benefits, but population control is also at the forefront of their thinking because of the nature of their work. Sometimes they have a very dim view of the average owner and his/her ability to avoid unwanted litters so for them Neutering is a battle cry.

For a caring owner who knows that their dog will not contribute to overpopulation, it would be necessary to take out the 'population control' element when studying their information, so that any decision is made on health grounds alone.

Vets, again by the nature of their work, see the sick dogs and not the ones who go through their lives entire with no problems.

However, as laypersons, we still need to exercise due diligent caution to make sure we understand what we are doing.

That's true. It was Nettle who advised me to really get to know my ***** - to check her all over regularly for lumps and bumps, know how much she drinks each day so that I can be alert to any changes, know her baseline temperature for similar reasons and remain vigilant. Excellent advice

She has recently been spayed at the age of nearly 7 (the dog, not Nettle ) because she developed a condition that appears from available research to predispose to further infections of the uterus and pyometra. The balance tipped from Not Spay to Spay, so I arranged it.

What I'm trying to say (not very succinctly )is that everyone needs to make their own decision based on available research - but be aware that pro-spaying information may be selected by some whose priority is in fact population control.

[Mattie]

Children will eventually grow up and be able to make their own medical decisions--and their own breeding decisions, too.

Dogs can't make their own medical decisions, and all their breeding is a result of human decision-making. So, yes, we make decisions for our dogs that we don't make for our kids--for their own good, and also for ours.

No dogs can't make the decision to be neutered but we can make sure that their body is working properly first before putting them through major invasive surgery. There are many bitches than don't have regular seasons, I know at least 1 who was 6 years old before she had her first season and her seasons are not normal. Spaying a ***** like her is unnecessary so why put her through it.

I have found that if you relate various stages of dogs to that of children, many owners suddenly see their dog's behaviour in a different light, they often realise that what they were doing and thought was different to what is happening.

I'm not a fan of "You must speuter your dog instantly or you're responsible for pet overpopulation and your pet will die!" bullying, and I'm not a fan of "Speutering is unnatural and we don't do it to our kids!" either.

This depends on the person you are talking to, relate things to children or humans often helps owners to understand.

Look at the medical evidence (such as it is; there's still a lot to be learned), consider your own dog and your own circumstances, and use your own best judgment. Although I'll add this caveat: the medical argument against early, pre-maturity speutering of large and gian breeds certainly looks very strong, and I'd wait if at all possible.

Lis

I have always said that the best way to go is to research as much as you can then make the best decision for yourself and your dog. Ideas are changing all the time, and the only way to keep up is to research as much as you can.

Esprit64, we have all been there and made mistakes, it is how we handle those mistakes that matter. We all continue to learn and that is the way forward.