Sooooo... we did it. Errol is now neutered.

[emmabeth]

Some of you will know I have had problems with Errol, both with him being fearful and aggressive towards men, and with him being bullying and controlling towards my older neutered male dogs.

We worked through his resource guarding and really got a handle on that, fixed his issues regarding getting on the bed and trying to kill anyone that came near..

We also massively improved his problem with resource guarding OH on the sofa and again, trying to kill anydog who came near.

What we never did manage to fix was his desire to control where Dilly and Rocky dog moved, ignore their blatant calming signals (looking away, lip licking, lowering their heads, about as non confrontational as you can get) and seemingly randomly attacking them purely for existing.

So for ages I have battled back and forth over the idea of neutering him, because on the one hand I do think it would improve the controlling/bullying behaviour, he really DOESN'T seem to know WHY he does it, its more an urge/drive than a conscious decision with an obvious goal, I was worried (and still am) that it would increase his fearful resource guarding and issues with men.

Wellllll - he was done yesterday.

I don't know if anaesthetics have changed or what but I do not recall either Rocky or Dilly being quiet so wiped out as Errol was - we got him back at 4pm, I think the vets did him first as he was visibly very stressed in kennels (drooling down his front so he was soaked within 15 minutes the vet said, and er, very tuneful!) so for most of his time there he was out of it recovering from the anaesthetic.

He was still wobbly when we brought him home, and we had to wake him up for his tea (he was starving!) and then wake him up twice more to go to the toilet (which he needed both times) but other than that he pretty much did not move until this morning.

No idea if thats the drugs or the stress, hmm.

Anyway, so far since he walked back in yesterday we have only had two growling issues - as he came through the door which was fair enough, that was a 'go away don't crowd me I feel like crap' and once today when Mike jumped up, Errol responded the way he always does, jump up and grr a the nearest dog, only this time he got half way through his 'this means I grr at YOU...' pattern and stopped, looked a bit baffled and went and lay down.

He has NOT followed the others around outside peeing over their marks, in fact he has only peed to relieve himself and hasn't marked at all. Things may be sore though..

He has not growled at anyone for merely existing at all, hes walked over to Rocky a number of times and not really known why so gone back and lay down.

Rocky and Dilly are DEFINITELY aware something has changed. Rocky is much less stressed about him, feeling confident to walk past him in narrow gaps and step over him. Dill is much more relaxed though not quite so confident in close quarters...

So - no idea what the effects are as to his opinions on strange men but frankly, I don't care now. I can keep him away from them!

I am hoping this is a true indication of whats to come and not just him still being knackered from the op (surely not, its not THAT big an op really and we are 24 hours + on from it).

[Sarah83]

Rupert was pretty out of it for about 24 hours after being neutered. I don't know whether it was the anaesthetic or stress with him either. He could barely walk when we brought him home whereas Shadow actually walked the 10 minutes home from the vets after his neuter and was completely back to himself by the next morning.

Fingers crossed it's not just a still recovering and not feeling great thing with Errol and his change in behaviour.

[bendog]

Ben was sore for a few days and very wobbly. People all react differently to anaestethic so I guess dogs can too. Bens another stress head though.

[Nettle]

Fingers crossed it works for you. Nobody could have tried harder ))))))))))))))))HUGS(((((((((((((((((((

Chances are he's all out of adrenaline. I've known dogs spacy for days after anaesthetic.

[jacksdad]

I know you are anxious to see how it all shakes out...but I don't think you can really judge the effects good or bad just yet. this maybe a routine surgery, but it's hardly "minor". we should never downplay any medical procedure that includes general anesthetic + cutting into a body...let alone removing body parts.

He just needs to heal right now and his behavior will reflect that for a while.

Please keep us updated and here is hoping Errol heals quickly and completely with no complications.

[emmabeth]

I guess the other two are just generally more robust lads - they both were raring to go from the second we left the vets and behaved as if nothing had happened pretty much, hence my surprise at Errol being so wiped out.

He's been for a gentle on lead walk tonight with the other two, we did end up out for over an hour but he was raring to go, and not getting whingey or sad-dog (he gets sad-dog if you make him walk further than he wants, and then he just melts and won't move, so he was fine tonight).

He was pretty annoyed that the older boys were allowed to jump in and out of the stream and he was not, there was a bit of sad-dog crying at that!

Again, I have noticed tonight a couple of situations like earlier, where learned behaviour kicks in (growl at Rocky when he is near you and you are having your harness taken off), and then he stops because I think the reason he was doing it is now gone.. Two days ago if he started growling at Rocky, you had a hell of a job distracting and redirecting him but tonight I just asked him for a sit and he sat and they both had treats..

I still don't know if the neutering has had an effect yet or if its just him being tired (though previously, a more tired, ill feeling Errol is a more reactive, arsey Errol!) but I think its probably best to continue as if it IS the neutering, so giving him lots and lots of reward for being nice, distracting him if he sets off on an old behaviour pattern and redirecting him and being super careful for the next few weeks over who he meets and where he goes.

[JudyN]

I think the full effects of neutering can take a few months to emerge (though I've always suspected that this is because most male dogs are neutered when their bad behaviour is at its very worst and can only get better).

[jacksdad]

I could be way off...but I think it's way to early to tell how much is the reduction in testosterone and how much is any residual pain, tenderness, general "not feeling good" from the surgery.

you have advised others that sometimes the "meekness" is because the dog knows they are currently weak (illness, injury...recent surgery) and so knows getting into a dust up is a loosing proposition. and that is part of why I say the above.

[Ari_RR]

Looking forward to updates... We'll have to neuter Ari if we ever decide to get an RR girl (whom we will, I am sure, try to keep intact also until she matures)

Totally off topic - but we spayed our cat-girl early, and I am convinced that she has never really recovered, personality-wise... She was a fairly playful cat before, but lost a lot of energy and "life" after getting spayed, and never really got it back.

[dontpugme]

We neutered max when he was about 6. He wasn't extremely playful before the operation, so we didn't see much of a difference in behavior (he's 8 now). Poor thing was so wobbly when he came home. My dad actually slept downstairs in our living room with him so he wouldn't have to climb up the stairs.

[Nettle]

I could be way off...but I think it's way to early to tell how much is the reduction in testosterone and how much is any residual pain, tenderness, general "not feeling good" from the surgery.

you have advised others that sometimes the "meekness" is because the dog knows they are currently weak (illness, injury...recent surgery) and so knows getting into a dust up is a loosing proposition. and that is part of why I say the above.

My thoughts exactly. Way too soon for the hormone levels to have changed, but he knows he's weak, possibly for the first time, and also had something of a culture shock at the vet's.

[emmabeth]

Jacksdad and Nettle -spot on.

The boy bounced back today - I am just so surprised its knocked him so badly where (admittedly over ten years ago) the other two were seemingly oblivious!

Anyway, hes much much happier today, he came with me to the rescue along with Dilly dog as I had to pop in and get a quick update on various things as Ive been out of action for over a week and waited in the car. Mike says he watched the people and dogs around (at a decent distance) but didn't make a sound at all so thats a good experience post neutering

When we came back in the house he got a bit growly over re-integrating with everyone but nothing unjustified really - again he's stopped himself mid 'grr' and sort of thought 'er... wha?' and its turned into a whiny sort of crying thing.

I think being at the vets was a MASSIVE shock to his system - on reflection he IS a spoilt brat in many respects, hes the baby, he gets away with a lot, he has an inflated sense of his own superiority because anytime there IS an actual fight, where he won't let go (because he knows if he did there'd be serious trouble), one of us splits it up and I am positive he comes away from each one thinking he has 'won'... but theres nothing I can do about that as to let them fight it out would undoubtedly result in a dead Errol!

Dilly is definitely responding in a more confident way around him, as is Rocky, which again I think is reinforcing Errols realisation that he is weaker than he was.

Not sure on the crying thing though - he did it earlier this morning, walking alongside Dill making this low crying 'urr urr' whingey sort of sound, which then turned into a growl as Dilly ignored him and jumped on the sofa, but that ceased immediately we told him to leave it (wouldn't have previously).

I'll keep charting whats going on as its good to look back, he's definitely confused about things now so I am keen to capture good behaviour even if it is just because hes feeling out of sorts, and mark and reward it!

[Nettle]

The crying may be related to a very sore throat from the anaesthetic tube. Arnica would help.

[jacksdad]

Emma, he is in good hands, he will make out ok.

Interesting observation about him possibly thinking he was winning the "fights".

[emmabeth]

I have been out this evening - when I came in there was a definitely different atmosphere - no one charged the door, Errol barely barked (he may still have a sore throat, yeah), but all the others were much calmer too, suggesting that the sense of competition is reduced.

Lots of praise for nice greetings and removal of fuss when he did little Grrs, return of fuss when he quit it. All good!