general query re: neuter/spay

[gwd]

mods, please feel free to move this thread as it doesn't specifically relate to a training question.

in another thread there was some discussion about neutering. since there are forum members from a variety of countries, i was just curious as to how many of you have neutered your boys, or spayed your girls. ......

and also, what decision making went into which path you elected? additionally, if you were to make a guess, the dogs you encounter when you're out and about, are they for the most part altered or intact?

unless i'm at an agility class or at a dog show, it's very rare for dogs here to be intact. in fact, if someone notices my boy is still sporting his 'parts' it's not uncommon that i get disapproving looks or even some rather rude comments. sometimes i don't bother to explain (as they've usually walked away by this point feeling rather superior) that i compete in conformation shows. at times even that explanation leads to more criticism as i've not rescued a dog.

which leads to another question. what is the prevailing attitude in your respective countries? are owning purebred dogs becoming a choice you seem to have to defend?

[emmabeth]

I'll move this to general chat as it seems more appropriate there.

I have 2 bitches and 3 dogs - one dog is entire though he will be being neutered shortly, he is 4 and the youngest in the group.

I prefer to have my dogs neutered IF they appear to need it, when they are mature.

My saluki x afghan ***** was done when I got her - my Deerhound ***** was done after her second season which was a little earlier than I had planned but her season seemed to trigger bloat which she had to have surgery for and we thought it would then be safer to have her spayed as we had no intentions of breeding from her by that point.

My oldest dog was neutered at 18 months as I was told it would cure alllll his problems - well he stopped running off after bitches in season but became very dog aggressive and fearful instead.

My second oldest dog was neutered at 6 months as I was told it would avoid all potential problems - he is now sound phobic, hysterical and cannot tell other dogs to back off and leave him alone as he never matured into an adult dog. We manage them both really well and to meet them you would not know they had these issues, but its taken me the better part of ten years to get there.

My youngest male as I say is entire currently but is now mature, has some health problems that should NEVER be passed on and after a trial wtih Suprelorin I think would be better off neutered. This decision has taken me over a year to make and two years of behavioural work first.

I have no problem with neutering for the right reasons when a dog is mature - I have a HUGE problem with neutering being seen as a side effect free cure all for any manner of issues and I also do NOT buy the idea that neutering will reduce unwanted pups - in the last 20 years sthe 'spay and neuter your pet' message has been spread around the UK and over 50% of our canine population are neutered, yet we have an unwanted dog problem that increases by the tens of thousands, year on year. It doesn't work.

[emmabeth]

Oops..

Meant to add, I am in the UK - the general feeling is that everything should be neutered and that entire males are liable to be aggressive and uncontrollable, and that entire females will develop pyometra at the drop of a hat.

This attitude has got SO bad that now its very very rare for the owner of a dog to actually understand a female dogs reproductive cycle and that in itself causes accidental litters.

We are bombarded with the message that spaying and neutering reduces the number of unwanted dogs =- but since the unwanted dog population is primarily created by people buying dogs on a whim, from people who intentionally breed either back yard breeders earning a bit of cash or commercial puppy farmers, we have an ever growing population of dogs people don't want. There are now hundreds of rescues up and down the country were 20 years ago there would have been probably under 100 and most of those 'big name' rescues, not independant ones.

I live in a fairly desirable area of the country, in a very rural place and I would say theres a pretty even 50/50 split of neutered to not neutered - I have not noticed any issues with entire males, and I think the main difference here to where I recently moved from (suburban Manchester) is that dogs HERE are accepted as a part of life and are welcome in a huge range of places - dogs back in Manchester are barely tolerated anywhere and so they do not socialise, do not learn appropriate manners and can cause problems.

Tonight I enjoyed a meal outside a local pub with my little lurcher (my 'pub dogs' take it in turns, three out of the five are great for going to the pub, two are not) - there were FOUR dogs at the pub, two in the garden, one in front on a table by th edoor and one inside the pub. Apart from some minor yapping from a small undersocialised fluffy job, there was total peace and harmony. This pub like many others in the area will allow you to eat in the bar with your dog too and some will allow dogs in the restaurant also. Even the big name brewery chain owned pubs frequently allow dogs in th ebeer garden or in a special area of the pub so that you can eat with your dog!

[gwd]

Oops..

Meant to add, I am in the UK - the general feeling is that everything should be neutered and that entire males are liable to be aggressive and uncontrollable, and that entire females will develop pyometra at the drop of a hat.

that is the message we get in the us. specifically i'm in california. if you try and say anything about the possible benefits to the dogs remaining intact (osteosarcoma, thyroid issues, orthopedic issues, adverse vaccine reactions) the general response is a blank stare and the canned response of: "my vet said it was healthier"

you said 50/50 in your area. that is wildly different than where i am. .....as i said, we're in the minority! the 'anti-breeding' sentiment has gotten to the point where i wonder the fate of purebred dogs. ..........in fact, there is legislation up now that requlres anyone who sells a dog to someone that doesn't take delivery at the breeders home is subject to all of the rules and inspection as if they were a big, for profit breeder. .......that means no more puppies whelped in the family room and socialized to normal household routines. .........well, unless your family room has a concrete floor and a center floor drain.

another question if you don't mind, are more people forgoing annual vaccines as routine and instead electing to have titer checks done in your area?

[gwd]

but since the unwanted dog population is primarily created by people buying dogs on a whim, from people who intentionally breed either back yard breeders earning a bit of cash or commercial puppy farmers, we have an ever growing population of dogs people don't want.

interestingly our shelters are, of course, also full. however, 95 or so percent of the dogs available in southern cal. are either pittie's or chi's. ....if you want something other than that you're going to have trouble finding it.

[Ari_RR]

I can speak from a boy-dog perspective... we have an almost 23 months old intact male (a fairly large one too.. 29 inches, 95 lbs)

I think the prevailing attitude in my part of the world (North East US) is to neuter early. I don't see intact males very often.
To the point that some towns don't allow intact males to dog parks.
Prevailing point of view is, I believe, that intact males are aggressive and pose danger. The larger the intact dog - the more dangerous it is. I don't recall getting any rude comments (although I am not a very sensitive individual, and may easily miss something between the lines).. But I have gotten more than a few disapprovingly curious comments on why he is intact... or suggestions that he shouldn't be allowed to where "normal" dogs are.

When we first got our puppy, we were planning to neuter somewhere around 6 months.. not sure why, I guess expecting that it would make him a calmer dog. After a while, observing other dogs (in particular badly trained and badly behaving neutered ones), discsussing with our vet, reading this forum and other materials, talking to our and other breeders, etc, we formed an opinion that training is the only way to have a calm, confident, and well behaved dog. And while we may not be able to dedicate as much time and effort to training as we'd like to, and we don't have many years of experience with dogs, we will not try to "compensate" these factors by neutering. In short - we don't expect neutering to fix any behavioral issues that our boy may have, so this is not a factor.

Next - there are no free roaming females in heat where we live. And if there were any, Ari himself is not a free roaming dog, so unwanted pregnancy is such a remote possibility that it's not a factor either.

Next - health considerations. This one is still open, and we'll discuss this again with out vet in the fall. Vet, by the way, fully supported our decision not to rush with neutering.

Next - it is true, in my observation, that some neutered males react aggressively to our intact boy. And since the vast majority of males around here are neutered, this limits where we can go.. in particular, I think twice before going to places where there are lots of off leash dogs. But on the other hand - I want my boy to get off leash running too. The solution for that for us was to pick places and times where risks of him getting into trouble unsupervised are minimal... I discovered that at 5:30 am most people are still in bed, and I can bring him to our nature park and let him run free, chasing real or imaginary deer, and be happy. It costs me in sleep time, but I am willing...

That's it for the time being. If I think of something else, I will chime in again. Good topic !

[Wes]

My responses are very similar to Ari's. I am in North East US, I have two dogs. One is a two and a bit year old intact male Doberman. I've had him since he was 8-10 weeks old. I'm still not sure if I am going to neuter him; I have few issues with him at the moment aside from some insecurities which we're working through. I think it's going to a be a "cross that bridge when I come to it" deal. I frequently get disapproving looks (you have *that* kind of dog??! and he's *intact*?!?) and comments but Sam does really well with other dogs and mostly now just ignores people he doesn't know.

Remy is my second dog and he's a four and a half year old neutered male Catahoula whom we rescued in November-ish of last year. I have no idea when he was neutered, but he is a giant ball of nerves. He is snappy toward people (when he's not running from them) and can be snarky with other dogs if they come running up to him. He's very polite with other dogs (intact or otherwise) when they are polite back. Sampson defers to Remy in nearly every way and it's Remy whom you have to watch if there's a b*tch in heat nearby.

Neither dogs are allowed off leash unless it's in an enclosed area with no other dogs, so I don't have to worry about unwanted pregnancies. I definitely want to get Sam's insecurities regarding folks in the house under control before I neuter him if that's what I decide to do. I wish Remy were still intact because I think he wouldn't react so over the top as he does now to fears.

[bendog]

My male dog was intact until 5 years old. We lived in a rural area and didn't meet many dogs, so no pregnancy issues. When my dog was 5 we (dog and I) decided to move into my boyfriends parents house, where they had an intact female with all sorts of health issues. A pregnancy would have been catastrophic, boyfriends parents were not prepared to get their dog neutered, so unfortunately it had to be my dog that was, since there were at some points 9 adults and 2 toddlers living in the house keeping them separate during the season would have been impractical. He has always been quite an anxious boy and this has not been helped, and perhaps worsened by neutering, though since the neutering and moving house happened around the same time it's hard to say which unsettled him most.

We are now in our own house and inherited boyfriends parents dog (they no longer wanted her) as well as another puppy that they bought for themselves and couldn't keep. Both are still entire. The older one I will not get neutered because I feel she has enough health issues as it is and don't like the idea of more surgery and drugs. The younger has just had her second season (she's 14 months) and she is a nightmare during seasons (humping my boy dog, ignoring me, pulling on lead etc) so I do plan to neuter her when she is fully mature, probably around 2 years old.

In general I prefer to keep male dogs entire and neuter the females since I think there are more benefits to females being neutered (not having to deal with seasons - and the restriction to being on lead for three weeks during the season, no false pregnancy, less risk of pyo and cancers of the uterus etc) although having said that I have seen both operations (castration and spay) and spaying is much more invasive surgery and more stitches, etc so id worry about recovery - dog being in pain etc. castration is much easier and only a couple of stitches.

I don't know. The idea of putting my dog through unnecessary surgery is hard for me to consider, but since my pup turns evil during seasons I do think it is a step I will take unless she calms down in the next few seasons.

(ps I don't vaccinate yearly - pup had puppy vaccs, that's it)

[ClareMarsh]

Edited to add: I'm in the UK, in London

My little chi Ted is 13 months old and entire, when I got him I was all set for neutering at 6 months because that's what the vet told me and then thankfully I found myself here, started to become skeptical about dog food, vaccinations, worming and neutering and decided that he was going to get to two years old, thus fully mature and then I'd make a decision. He will need to be done at some point because he has a retained testicle so when he hits 8/9 years old the cancer risk in the retained one would be too much of a gamble. Otherwise I don't think I'd bother. I see both vets in my practice, one is happy with what I am doing, the other seems to think Ted is going to unlock the flat door and the front door and go out put a step ladder next to the nearest lab and mate

The risk of him breeding is negligible, he doesn't roam, has excellent recall and doesn't go out of sight on walks. I walk him in areas where owners are responsible and with him being so small I am always on the alert for other dogs I don't know to ensure safe introductions etc. By now I know which b tches have been spayed and which are on leads who wouldn't be usually (and thus in season). I can't see him getting to mate and like others have said the whole random pregnancy from non spay neuter dogs isn't the issue, it's deliberate breeding that's the problem.

Locally it seems most of the girls get spayed at 6 months, but most of the boys are intact. I live in a nice area and there are lots of dogs and lots of responsible owners (for the main part), I can only think of one dog that kicks off at other dogs that he doesn't know and he was neutered at about 8 months because "he kept getting attacked by other dogs", I didn't see any of this but if I had to guess I suspect his licence to do as he pleased as a pup had run out and he was being told off, regardless he is the lowest confidence dog around and the only one that goes mental when an unknown dog appears. Generally in the UK though it is frowned upon to have an entire male and the view is you should neuter to avoid aggression/disobedience etc

Vacs wise I did the puppy shots and we have no legal requirement to do any shots at all so from now on it's titres every few years much to my vets disgust

For completeness I did puppy worming but now I"m just going to get counts done unless I have concerns/there's a specific problem or the counts throw up a need for worming.

Finally he's raw fed I'm a vets worst nightmare

[Nettle]

I live in a rural/posh area of England. There is quite a divide in attitude here.

I keep hunting dogs. The working dog world here keeps its dogs and bitches intact. What a tragedy if the best dog you ever had couldn't be bred from! We also have several packs of hounds (average 100 per pack) all entire, all living in harmony, bitches separated when on heat of course.

The pet people are under pressure from most vets and all rescues to have their dogs neutered as early as possible. Apparantly entire male dogs are vicious, untrainable and will always be hooking off after bitches, and all owners of entire dogs of either sex are irresponsible nitwits personally causing hundreds of unwanted puppies.

In actual fact, ALL the rescues here import dogs because we don't have a stray dog problem at all, and any unwanted dogs come in mainly as a result of unrealistic expectations when people get a cute puppy, or a radical change in life circumstances.

A few vets are enlightened and recommend neutering when the dog is adult. Mine is one. In fact he is perfectly happy if dogs aren't neutered at all. Several here frighten owners by saying that their dog WILL get cancer if it isn't neutered as a puppy.

Personally, I keep my dogs and bitches intact, and accept the small amount of extra work involved. Until recently I was an occasional breeder and my impeccably-mannered stud dog has just died. He was the proof that it's all about training, not neutering. I could call him away from a b itch on heat and he would look at me for 'permission' before covering a b itch that we did want him to mate.

I do understand that most people prefer a neutered animal, and I have no criticism of that at all, as long as the dog has finished developing before it is neutered. I criticise neutering being promoted as a behavioural cure, and I would like to see more honesty about the drawbacks, especially spayed b itch incontinence.

On my vet's advice, my dogs have puppy vaccinations only. I used to have them blood-tested for immunity afterwards, but they always were, so I don't do that now.

[Sarah83]

I have a 15 month old intact male Lab and everyone is currently bombarding me with horror stories. Apparently in 3 months time he will suddenly morph into a sex mad, aggressive, out of control monster and life from then on will be hell. Having had intact dogs before I'm rather sceptical about that though. He's currently going through the teenage phase and is a bit of a nightmare but my previous ones all went through that phase and it passed. So I'll take my chances with Spencer. So far there's nothing making me think neutering would be beneficial for him and even if it were it wouldn't be done until he's mature which he isn't at the moment.

I'm in Germany but with the British Army. I'm not sure what the German view on spaying/neutering is, it's quite possible the vets push it on us English folks because of the sheer number of military families who get a dog out here only to abandon it when they're moved on and who breed willy nilly or buy a dog with no more thought than "oh it's cute" then "can't cope" with it so dump it. The Germans never question why mine isn't neutered though, the English do. Germany doesn't seem to have the problem with unwanted dogs places like the UK and US do, most of the dogs in the shelters and rescues in this area are brought over from Hungary, Cyprus and other countries.

Spaying and neutering pets doesn't really do much to help with the unwanted pet issue since most of those unwanted pets are bought on a whim from backyard breeders or pet stores. Nor does it solve most behavioural issues the way people seem to think it does. I'm sure it may help with some but it's not going to stop your dog jumping up or pulling on leash or magically make it so that it comes back when called yet I know people who've neutered for this sort of reason

At the moment I have no choice but to vaccinate to keep Spens passport up to date. The last thing I want is a sudden posting and him not be able to travel. If it wasn't for that I would be titer testing and only re-vaccinating if it proved necessary. I don't feel vaccinations every year are necessary or appropriate and I've refused the Kennel Cough vaccine for years as I don't believe a young, healthy dog needs it. I also feed raw so I'm not my vets favourite client for several reasons

I do however use chemicals to keep ticks at bay during certain months of the year. It's either that or remove about 30 ticks a day from him because none of the other options have done a thing.

[elisa]

Things are way different in Finland.
There is not really a problem with homeless/shelter dogs in Finland. At least on the scale of UK/USA. There are of course some shelters because there will always be people who get allergic or something and can't keep their dogs and then the irresponsible people you find everywhere. So there is not really a reason to spay/neuter for population control. And besides, most dogs are kept in the house and get out only when supervised.

In Finland it is not so common to have dogs spayed or neutered though now it is more common than like 10 years ago, in my opinion. Girls are likely done more often than boys since dealing with girls in season can be a hassle. I decided so with my girl (after her first season) partly since a month out of agility practice twice a year was not an inviting prospect and I had no intention of getting puppies. I think most people think similarly and the vets say it is best to wait till after their first season.

I think most males are not neutered. Even this one dog I know the same age as mine was not completely done even though his other testicle did not come down properly. At least the last time I spoke to the owner they were thinking only of dealing with the problem side. It might be partly a "you ain't taking away his manhood" sort of thing though. If I got a male dog I would see no reason to neuter.

One reason for the lack of spaying/neutering might also be that many (likely most) dogs in Finland are purebred and I think a rather high fraction of these are taken to shows and in my understanding show dog have to be complete with all their parts. Or at least there is not much point taking a dog to a show unless there is a possibility that it could then be bred from.

So short answers:
Spayed because it's easier for me.
Most dogs are intact.
More likely to be asked "Oh you got them spayed/neutered? Why?"
Purebred is the norm.

[JudyN]

I'm on the south coast of England and most dogs are neutered, though not all. On the whole people keep them entire if they think they may want to breed from them one day. Most are purebred, and the ones that are not are mainly rescues.

Jasper was neutered at 10 months because of serious aggression problems (mostly food related). His behaviourist would normally not recommend neutering until he was fully mature mentally, but felt that in his case it was a gamble we had to take. His vet felt that there was a very low risk of side effects as his joints were more or less fully developed.

Was it the right decision, in retrospect? I have no idea. I've seen what testosterone does to my sons and know it causes 'anger management issues' so can only assume that it is a factor in male dogs. Jasper did improve from a few months after neutering but maybe he would have done anyway. If I hadn't neutered him, just maybe the aggression would have been worse for longer and we would have been forced into having to make a difficult decision.

On the other hand, he can be quite a stresshead at times, which can also lead to him thinking about using his teeth when he's uncomfortable. But he was a stresshead from the day we got him (cried for all of the five-hour car journey when we brought him home at 7 weeks, and had separation issues from the start) so maybe he wouldn't have been so different.

I wouldn't like to have the responsibility of controlling him if he came across a b itch in heat when off lead. As it is, he has firmly told OH to find his own girlfriend when he tried to stop him humping his bed

Although in theory neutered lurchers can be (and are) shown, the general feeling is that the boys are far less likely to do well without their 'bits'.

I still need to make up my mind about vaccinations vs titre testing. Last time Jasper had an injection it took two of us to hold him down while he was injected, so I have no idea how we'd get blood out of him...

[ClareMarsh]

I still need to make up my mind about vaccinations vs titre testing. Last time Jasper had an injection it took two of us to hold him down while he was injected, so I have no idea how we'd get blood out of him...

Judy have a look at this (http://www.wsava.org/VGG1.htm), it might help, the vaccine licences are now for at least 3 years so there's no reason to do anything every year. I seem to remember he was boosted recently so you have 3 years to decide and by then you'll have clicker trained him to draw his own blood

Edited to add the link

[bendog]

Judy my vet told me not to bother with vaccines. Said ben is *probably* still immune from previous vaccs despite it being at least 6 or 7 years since his last ones. But didn't seem to think I needed to titre to be sure. That said I think this is a low risk area for most nasties.