Guilt

[JudyN]

if I nick it when you're watching, you might take it off me

Not the case with Jasper!

But 'If I can nick it before you've had a chance to say no, then it's mine.' Yep, that works.

Suzette, I do find your Sheltie intriguing. One explanation would be that something had upset him and caused him both to chew the book and feel bad when you got home, because there must be a reason why he suddenly felt the need to chew something he doesn't normally. Jasper's not a chewy dog but he will sometimes make off with one of my hankies, or my diary to nibble on - I feel that it's a sort of comfort item.

[Wilkie]

In my opinion, until I magically become a dog, I won't know what they're thinking and how they view the world. On the other hand, I think they do learn right from wrong and feel guilt or become very pleased with themselves after doing something inappropriate. We teach them that certain things are not good and we teach them the good things that are much better as an alternative. For example, instead of chewing the couch they chew a Kong with delicious food or give them another toy they love.

[emmabeth]

I am 100% convinced a dog cannot feel 'guilt', because its a human construct and actually theres a pretty large percentage of PEOPLE who don't feel it - guilt relies on empathy, the ability to put yourself in someone elses shoes and imagine how it would feel if it were you.

A dog cannot do that as far as we are aware and its highly unlikely that they can because what we DO know is that even children can't do it until a relatively advanced age (four + for the more complex theory of mind stuff and even older for the complicated social constructs we have!)..

To feel guilty, you need to a/ understand that your action was wrong - and 'wrong' or 'bad' are social concepts which a dog cannot grasp, again involving empathy in this context, you'd have to understand that chewing up a book is wrong because it belongs to someone else and will upset them from a material value basis and from an emotional basis. B, you need to care that it was wrong and you upset someone.

I don't think a dog can do that and theres plenty of evidence around to back that up.

I suspect for a sensitive dog like Suzettes sheltie, just something unusual, something out of context was sufficient and there was probably some event that happened that made her want to chew something, the nearest thing available, that upset her, so you can easily then get a situation where a dog is upset or worried, does something.. and then the item is left chewed up on the floor which is out of context, thats not normally there so it serves as a visual marker for whatever happened and the anxiety remains until hte owner comes home and the dog appeases the owner 'something worrying happened when you were gone and now this 'wrong' thing is here and I am worried'...

Not doing something in frotn of you is no indicator of guilt - just a learned understanding that attempting to do the thing will result in failure, and potentially being told off.

[Suzette]

I suspect for a sensitive dog like Suzettes sheltie, just something unusual, something out of context was sufficient and there was probably some event that happened that made her want to chew something, the nearest thing available, that upset her, so you can easily then get a situation where a dog is upset or worried, does something.. and then the item is left chewed up on the floor which is out of context, thats not normally there so it serves as a visual marker for whatever happened and the anxiety remains until hte owner comes home and the dog appeases the owner 'something worrying happened when you were gone and now this 'wrong' thing is here and I am worried'...

Interesting. Emmabeth, I could see it playing out that way.

Of all the breeds I've owned and known (and this is just my personal experience and take on it), shelties are among the most sensitive and quite human-like in their responses and emotions. That's not to say that they actually posses every human emotion, (I know they don't) it's just an observation of how they appear to express themselves.

[runlikethewind]

Suzette. Maybe your daughter has punished him in some form or another? Possibly? What's with the appeasement gestures if it's not learnt or associated with the examples given above by others as well? But I like the explanation given by Emmabeth which would serve to explain if the dog has not been punished at all, ever, then the link to the object would be about a connection to a worrying event instead.

I agree with JacksDad and Emmabeth. The concepts are human emotions and dogs are only reacting to the world around them from what they have learnt previously. I firmly believe, they know no good and bad, no guilt, no knowing they did wrong - that is the wonderful thing about dogs. They are so innocent.

But at the same time, they are so in tune with us. They react to our reactions as has been said. We can say Oh good girl but they don't know they did 'good' - the concept of doing well. All they know is, whatever they did made us happy and excited and that is rewarding to them and they will do it more. We can say Oh bad dog, doesn't mean they understand they did 'bad'. The tone means a lot as well. Whatever it was (which had to have come seconds before) that made human angry, they will do it less. I'm not advocating punishment by the way! No one wants to see a dog showing appeasement signals or reacting aggressively if reprimanded or in fear of what is coming.

In answer to the very interesting post, I think it's testament to your relationship with your dog that he doesn't show appeasement signals.

[bendog]

Partly personality too. Ben reacts with worry and appeasement signals when one of the OTHER dogs has wee'd on the floor - it's not guilt, since he has done nothing wrong. The girls couldn't care less, but he worries, perhaps because as Emmabeth said, it's not "supposed" to be there - outside he always marks over the girls urine, inside he never has.

He also shows appeasement signals to ANY raised voice, even when not directed at him. Is VERY sensitive to my moods, and will offer appeasement signals (licking my face, cuddling up) when I am upset for whatever reason also. Again, the girls don't seem to pay any attention to shouting or crying, even if it is directed at them! Nor to they seem to care a jot whether I am happy or sad, so long as they are walked and fed they are happy.

I'm not sure if this is because Ben is the only one of the three who has lived with my Dad (who can be rather scary and shouty), or if the others are just more robust emotionally. Sasha was certainly shouted at VERY often at her old home, and paid no attention whatsoever, but maybe in her case she learnt to just ignore the yelling, rather than become upset by it.

Sasha is a sneaky little sh*t with food. She will wait until you are distracted however momentarily before stealing something she has been asked to leave. She feels no guilt whatsoever!

[Suzette]

Suzette. Maybe your daughter has punished him in some form or another? Possibly?

Valid question, but my daughter, even at a very young age, has always been gentle and loving towards animals. In fact, she has worked with animals since she was eleven years old on a farm near us. The owner saw her gift for quietness and gentleness around animals and hired her while the other kids on her farm were free volunteers. (Because of this empathy and her love for animals I was sure she'd want to be a vet, but she's actually decided to get a degree in psychology. ) So while nothing is impossible, I doubt very much that she punished him in any way. She is the ultimate positive trainer in that she was doing it naturally before she ever read about it as a training technique.

[runlikethewind]

She sounds wonderful. What a special person.

[Wilkie]

Not all people, but some seem to believe that dogs are robots that people can program. We all know that robots really aren't smart because they are programmed to feel exactly how we feel. I personally don't believe animals need to be programmed to feel how we feel, like they're leeches feeding off of humans. Animals aren't aliens. I think that if animals can feel pain (they definitely do feel pain, learn, communicate (they don't make noises for nothing. They aren't toys.) Then they can feel other emotions. You can't feel one emotion without feeling the other. There is so much evidence that animals have emotions, but people refuse to believe that we aren’t the only ones on earth after all. Most people only care about number one.

[Secret Someone]

This confuses me, because Pan lets me know he's done something he's not allowed to do before I have any idea. I'll be happy to see him, expecting a waggy tail and cuddle pleas, and instead he's sheepish and slinky and looking towards something. I go towards it and see he's shredded something. He then comes over and licks me in a very pacifying way and gives me a look that he only does then... to me (as a mere human :p ) it's like he's showed me it, looked really sorry and then come over to check I'm not angry. I don't know what it really is in dog world, though.

He also seems to understand life rewards, in the sense that if he hasn't done certain things and has behaved well, he's allowed to 'help' me put my wheelchair away and sit outside the front while I put it on charge. He seems to know when he's allowed to do this and when he's not (if he has chased things, for example, he's not allowed, because I don't feel it's safe for him to not be on a lead) without me telling him. He's never got it wrong. Perhaps he's just reading my body language?

He also knows to not take various items for chewing, even when I'm not there. I don't know how dog psychology stuff works, but he's so clever and seem to just 'know' certain rules.

Perhaps now I'm just being silly, but yeah.

[JudyN]

Perhaps now I'm just being silly, but yeah.

Nope, you know what you're seeing, it's what exactly is going on in the dog's head that is the hard bit!

Most people probably know the story of Clever Hans, the horse who could apparently do arithmetic. The interesting thing is that although he was responding to his owner's body language, even the owner didn't realise this! So it's almost impossible to know what body language our dogs are picking up because we don't even know we're doing them ourselves. Certainly Jasper has an almost psychic ability to understand when we're talking about when to feed, when to walk him, and so on, even when we're carefully selecting words we think he doesn't know and trying to talk in a flat tone.

Thinking back, when Jasper wasn't allowed on the sofas but snuck on them when we weren't looking, he did look guilty when we came in. I suppose we used to ask him to get off firmly, but didn't 'tell him off'. And when I found him on our bed the other day, which he hadn't been on for months, he got off very quickly, though my tone of voice was surprised rather than angry. So I wouldn't call it guilt. Just a knowledge that there are 'rules', though the rules maybe don't apply when you're not looking.

Which boils down to the main rule being 'Don't get caught'