Guilt

[JudyN]

If your dog is caught red-handed up on the worktop licking the chopping board on which there had been half a jar's worth of sundried tomatoes in oil, gets down when told, but shows absolutely no signs of remorse whatsoever, is this a testament to your embracing positive dog training principles, of which you should be proud, or a sign of a badly trained dog?

Do your dogs show guilt (or show signs of being upset because they know you're displeased)? And is this a good thing or a bad thing?

It'll be interesting to see the effect sun-dried tomatoes have on Jasper's digestion....

[jilldiane]

Well Judy I can tell you my dogs have absolutely no notion of guilt at all!! prehaps its a sighthound thing If I catch them in the act they are more than likely to be upset because they would like to finish it off than feel upset that I am displeased. I`ve never really thought if that is a good thing or not, to be honest I just think my one dog in particular ( the youngest) is a thieving little devil if he gets the chance and he aint got no little Jiminy Cricket sat on his shoulder saying " you shouldn`t be doing that now should you"

Hope Jasper suffers no side effects from his counter surfing act

[Erica]

Ami certainly shows no guilt. If you catch him on the counter and ask him to get off, he looks over his shoulder and sllllooooowwwwlllyyyy sinks off, staring at you the whole time, making sure to drag his claws along the edge of the counter in as noisy a fashion as he can manage.

Marble also counter surfs, though she also just likes to see what's on the counter - even if you're RIGHT there.

So none of the dogs I care for show guilt. I doubt that any do...they'd first have to have a concept of right and wrong, which I doubt most (any) do.

[Flyby]

See I don't know about this... If they had NO notion of guilt, then they'd jump on the table in front of you, but instead, they wait until you're not there and nobody is watching. It might not be guilt exactly, but there is sense of doing something they shouldn't...

But obviously the inner doggy conscience saying no is an anaemic and feeble little voice when compared to the lusty YEAH! YEAH! YEAH! telling them it's absolutely fine to go ahead and plunder the butter dish.


(Did I say 'they'? - Sorry Pip. )

[JudyN]

See I don't know about this... If they had NO notion of guilt, then they'd jump on the table in front of you, but instead, they wait until you're not there and nobody is watching. It might not be guilt exactly, but there is sense of doing something they shouldn't...

I think maybe they form the rule that 'I'm only allowed to do this if there's no one watching... '

[rachel540]

Hi! I think Pepper knows when shes done something she shouldnt, when we come home to something shes destroyed shes very sheepish and often runs into her crate when im opening the door. When shes has done something we never tell her off but i cant help but sound disappointed and she recognises that in my voice. She seems to have learnt the word naughty, we sometimes say "no thats naughty" in a different tone of voice and she seems to go abit sheepish. We havent done that intentionally and know its not very positive, but i think shes just eager to please.

[jacksdad]

Alexandra Horowitz author of Inside of a dog (http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Dog-What-D ... a+Horowitz) conducted a study to look into this. the experiment was pretty strait forward. she talks about it in her book, or you can read a bit about it here http://www.science20.com/news_articles/ ... _your_head

Bottom line, Dogs don't do guilt. at least as most people perceive it. IF (big if) dogs are capable of guilt, what triggers that feeling and how they look and behave while feeling guilt may not be what we expect or think.

Remember, guilt is triggered by learned values. Even among humans what triggers guilt isn't universal. what triggers guilt can be very dependent on local laws, customs, religious beliefs, personal ethics etc.

So, do dogs know it's "wrong" to counter surf. In my opinion, no...absolutely not. Why should they see/feel it's wrong. the food items are left unguarded. The rules of survival are deeply ingrained, and the rules say unguarded food is up for grabs.

Like Fly, I think there is something else going on. What I think that something else is, is this.

Dog have learn that we humans like to guard and "claim" everything around us. Some humans are more scary and unsafe than others about this. The more scary and unsafe the human is, the more "sneaky" the dog will become and wait for the human to not be around before checking the counter tops for food items left unguarded.

If you have done a really good job of training a leave it and and "off", you might be able to call your dog away from a food item they are counter surfing. The stronger those behaviors, the calmer you are, the less "unsafe" body language you give off...the less "guilty" your dog will look.

If on the other hand you erupt in to shouting and lots of arm waving, charge up to them and make a huge deal out of it...you are essentially "attacking" and saying this resource is mine, back off. your dog will respond with what people attribute as guilt, but what you are really seeing is the same appeasement behavior dogs use among each other to peacefully resolve such a situation. your dog isn't feeling guilt, he/she is trying to avoid a fight and stop the "attack".

Even among humans we can give off the "guilty" look as appeasement and to prevent "attack" or punishment without truly feeling guilty or remorseful. Sometimes the not feeling guilt despite how a human may look or behave is because at one extreme the person is a psychopath. At the other, it could simply be a misunderstanding and looking "guilty" its simply a means to (like our dogs) to end the "attack" until we can learn what it was we "did wrong".

my 2 cents for what it's worth...

[JudyN]

I think also, dogs do learn habits, though,and some are more fixed in this than others. So having learned 'I do not go on the sofa', they will not do this even when on their own, just like they will avoid toileting in the house whether there's someone there or not. Some dogs, I dare say, will extend this to 'I do not take food off the worktop': it's like you don't walk into a cake shop and take a cream doughnut off the shelf - you don't even feel temptation because the possibility never even occurs to you. (I'm assuming you're all law-abiding citizens )

[bendog]

They must learn habits, how else do they learn the difference between things they are allowed to chew (toys, antlers) and things not to chew (shoes, tv remote).

Poppy isn't totally reliable at this yet, but mostly is ok. Ben is perfect despite being a major chewer of his toys. They must learn this from somewhere and generalise somewhat (I can chew my toys - even new toys, but I can't chew bookcases, remotes, the toy box etc). The only thing Ben has got confused with is when we lives with the toddler a few plastic building blocks got chewed up, but they were on the floor and not dissimilar to a dog toy I guess.

With the guilt thing, unfortunately I have quite a temper, I do my best to shield the dogs from it, but just my general attitude - heavy sighs, yelling ( not at dogs, usually at boyf - why the hell did you leave that there, why werent you watching them), slamming things down on the counter, throwing pillows when things get really bad - the dogs know I'm not happy. This is not a good way to be (obviously) but I can't seem to help it unfortunately. If i am angry with them on a walk it is quick march and no stopping to sniff which clues them onto my mood.

It's not guilt though, it's more appeasement as jacks dad said. Ben used to seem "guilty" when poppy had wee'd in the house though. I always wondered whether that was because he "knew" dogs shouldn't wee in the house, or whether he was just unsettled by the scent, or anxious that HE would get told off for it, despite never being told off for weeing in the house ever.

[Ari_RR]

This actually made me think what a good boy Ari really is... He doesn't steal any food, he doesn't chew any furniture, and doesnt even try to push open our doggie barrier doors when we leave them unlocked.

On the other hand - he enjoys scaring our elderly neighbors into a hasty retreat and unapproving frowns, and when that happens I am absolutely sure that he feels zero remorse.. On the contrary, he seems to be awfully pleased and proud of himself

[Suzette]

I hear what you're all saying, and I don't disagree with it, but I wonder what you think of the following:

Several years ago I had a sheltie that was quite a good dog. He had great manners in the house and never really did anything 'naughty'. (To be sure, he did have an issue or two, but that was related to reactivity to other male dogs.) Anyway, one day, I came home after he'd been alone in the house for a few hours (he was very comfortable being alone, never showing any signs of anxiety or stress and at this point I'd had him for about four years) and he wasn't his usual self. Always happy to greet us, this time he was laying low to the ground, didn't want to make eye contact with me and kept ducking his head down and to the side. I was happy as always to see him and tried to get him to come to me, and he did, but in a slinking along the floor kind of way.

Whether they can feel guilt or not, he was definitely acting contrite for something he had done. Not knowing what was causing this, I did a quick check of the house and found that he had chewed a book in my daughter's room - something he had never done before.

Now, I couldn't have transferred any feelings of my own to him to make him act the way he did since at first I had no idea he had chewed the book and I came through the door happy to see him. He had never gotten in trouble for chewing since he'd never done it before, so how did he "know" it was wrong to make him act the way he did when I got home? (And by the way, when I found the book, I didn't scold or reprimand him. I simply tossed the book and moved on, oh and for a long time I made sure we didn't leave books around for him to find, though he never did chew another inappropriate thing for the rest of his life. I still wonder what it was about that book that made him chew it apart!)

[Flyby]

I can be pretty sure I've never given Odin a row for jumping on the table, because he's much too fly to let me catch him actually on the table. I'd think twice about a row now anyway, but even before PR+, the only reason I knew he was on the table were his footprints on the table and the absence of butter. I hear what you all say about guilt, but whatever you care to call it, the 'discretion' and secrecy Odin uses to swipe the butter is self taught.

[jacksdad]

lets anyone thinks they are truly hiding their "emotions" or reactions from their dog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9weseNfe4k

this is a GREAT example of how closely our dogs can pay attention to the smallest signals we give off

[Flyby]

I have another small theory, I think it might be greed.

As in, if I nick it when you're watching, you might take it off me or I might have to share it with you. But if I nick it when you're not there, then it's ALL for me!!

[Suzette]

Interesting video Jacksdad. I have had three "super sensitive" dogs that would react to even the tiniest sigh I might give (even if not directed in any way towards them), but I still can't explain why my sheltie behaved as he did when I couldn't have given off any negative vibes associated with his chewing the book since I didn't know he had done that (or anything else one might perceive as "naughty") I came through the door as happy to see him as always. In fact, he wasn't at the door waiting for me that day as he always was. I came in and saw him slinking in the living room. He simply seemed to know on some level he had done 'wrong' all by himself and acted accordingly. I'm not one to over anthropomorphize when it comes to my four legged crew, but his reaction that day has stayed with me and made me curious as to whether or not some dogs can not only sense that they may have displeased us all on their own, but also feel contrite over their actions.