Pit Bull "Type"

[lewisphipps]

I'm sure that any of you that have read my recent posts know that we have recently adopted a 1.5yr old American Bulldog and we've had some problems between him and our current dog, a SBT X who is 12 months (in 8 days ). Fortunately we're due to see a qualified behaviorist to help us to address their issues and decide how we should progress and things are already calming down (I'll leave an update on the other post soon!)


Snoop (the Bulldog) is a very big boy and attracts a lot of attention (unfortunately negative). Somebody in our local park called the police and made an accusation that my partner and I were fighting the dogs (we had them separately leashed and were walking in opposite directions due to a purely vocal disagreement over a stick to calm things down). An officer arrived whilst we were still in the park and dismissed the accusations when we explained our situation and he petted both dogs and was happy to see that they were both very friendly and happy to say hello to him. However, he expressed concerned over our staffy cross ***** and has taken our details just because a complaint was logged. I'm worried that he thinks our girl may be a 'pit bull type' as he was asking if we had papers for her and other questions about her parentage and remarked that she didn't look like a pure staff.

The thing is, is that the UK system at the moment is whack, and what with BSL being in the public eye, I'm worried that people of varying opinions are concerned with the law being fulfilled. If I attached a few pictures of our girl and some details of height/weight, is there anybody who could tell me if she's likely to fit the 'type' so I can find out more about what rights I have if they do come knocking? I know it's not as simple as identifying a breed by a breed standard; Labradors to bull mastiffs have been confiscated within our area under the accusation of being a 'pit-type', but I thought perhaps understanding how much she configures could put my mind at ease.

Sorry for another long winded post!

Much appreciated!

Lewis

[lewisphipps]

Please go here if you would like to see some pictures of her

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lewisphipps/sets/

She's about 35-37 pounds and a little more than 16 inches tall.

Thanks for any feedback :/

[Ari_RR]

To me, she is a pitt bull, no doubt whatsoever.
She maybe a cross with something, but she looks like a pit bull.

[bendog]

I really don't know enough to say. She doesn't quite look Staffy to me though. Many rescues will unfortunately rehome Pit bull types as Staffs so if she came from a rescue you could blame them? Since you genuinely didn't realise and the dog is safe I would hope they'd let you get a licence for her and keep her

[Wilkie]

Many dogs that look like Pit Bulls aren't really Pit Bulls at all. That's one of the reason why prejudice against dogs need to stop. Unless you know the mother and father, it's hard to tell. Some characteristics might match other breeds. Pit Bull isn't actually a breed though.

[ClareMarsh]

I know it's not as simple as identifying a breed by a breed standard; Labradors to bull mastiffs have been confiscated within our area under the accusation of being a 'pit-type', but I thought perhaps understanding how much she configures could put my mind at ease.

Although it pains me to say it if this is the case then I would say if they can take a lab for this reason then they can take her. If she were mine I would be doing my reasearch "just in case".

[Ari_RR]

I am a bit puzzled.. Does this mean that there is some kind of local municipal authority which has the right to confiscate a dog based purely on it's appearance ???

[JudyN]

I am a bit puzzled.. Does this mean that there is some kind of local municipal authority which has the right to confiscate a dog based purely on it's appearance ???

Oh yes... not sure if it's the council that has the right or it's down to the police but yes, if a dog is suspected of being pit-bull type, they can confiscate it. Even if the person suspecting this is the same person who asks me if Jasper is an Afghan hound

And bear in mind that by the time the wheels of the law have creaked into action and someone has finally admitted that the dog isn't pit-bull type after all, it has been incarcerated in a kennel for some time, with minimal handling because, after all, it might be potentially vicious. By the time it gets out, it may well be

[ladybug1802]

Id say shes defo staffie cross.....she looks sooo staff! Shes gorgeous!

I hate this BSL rubbish....its disgraceful. The way Belfast County Council treted Lennox is appalling...even with experts vouching for the fact that he was not vicious or a danger at all. The laws here are ridiculous!

[lewisphipps]

bendog - I didn't get her from a rescue, I got her from a guy that was about to take her to a rescue as she was being battered and bruised by his older dog (her father). I saw pictures of the mother but not the mother, but not being overly concerned with her breed I wasn't too bothered at the time anyway. Even if she was from a rescue, I don't want somebody to blame, just to keep her safe!

She's a pleasure, but a nervous dog, although she has never displayed fear aggression, I don't think she'd stand a chance at being tested as a completely stead-fast dog because she's not, she's a work in progress. Although she doesn't display aggression if the local authority were to test her character they would want her to not bat an eye in the face of people and animals acting in various ways, and otherwise would make the accusation of her being unpredictable no doubt

She's never attracted attention before at all, but now we have the big guy people literally cross the street. I've started to swop my dog walking clothes for smart clothes purely to divert the image that people have of me walking my dogs. The whole thing is a farce.

[bendog]

Sorry - I meant that you have not gone out and deliberately bought a "pit bull type" dog as some kind of status symbol. IF she does turn out to be a pit then it is because she was misrepresented by previous owners. It must surely count in your favour having not known.

I think the law is a bit stupid personally.

[lewisphipps]

Thanks bendog, I should hope that her regular vet visits, insurance, chip etc. would go some way to showing she's not in hands that wish to use her for such purposes. I think you're right though, it might help.

The law is ridiculous because I'm pretty sure from seeing some of the dogs in our area that have been confiscated previously that the LA have never even seen a picture of a dog considered a pitbull by the UKC. I personally never even thought about it with her before; hundreds of dogs in rescue centres have the same look about them and I personally thought pits were a bit taller! She's tall for a Staff but still pretty small and weedy.

I don't know what to do short of walking her on the DL in the night or driving out to the country. It's all very worrying, feels sort of out of personal control and unjustified!

:/

[Wes]

Just wanted to jump in quick. Pit bull is a breed as well as a type - the American Pit Bull Terrier. My Rosie was pure APBT - 40 pounds, not too stocky, and all terrier.

[emmabeth]

For those confused...

The UK bans four breeds, three of which are almost NEVER seen here (the Dogo Argentino, the Fila Brasiliera, the Japanese Tosa), one of which is the 'pit-bull type' .. that, is, under UK law, any dog that fits the criteria for LOOKING like a pitbull.

They use (illegally and they have been asked not to but have so far failed to comply) the ADBA standard for the Pitbull, and they measure dogs, with dogs needing to fit the measurements and be more (in their opinion) Pitbull type than anything else.

This unfortunately means any bull breed/lab/mastiff crossbreed CAN easily grow up to fit the criteria and be a 'type' dog, so a perfectly legally bought puppy, who is half labrador, half staffie (and the parents could be fully registered and identifiable by DNA!) could grow up to be illegal.

The people doing the measuring should have undergone a training course to be a DLO - Dog Legislation Officer, most dog wardens have NOT done this course and are thus not qualified to decide if a dog is type or not. I think it is only some police officers who have done the course.

It is very opinion based and theres lots and lots of room for interpretation which means you get a wide variety of dogs fitting the criteria, and as I said before, they don't need to have ANY actual pitbull blood in them, they just have to LOOK type.

Unfortunately, I think Poppy could easily be classified as 'type' - though going in her favour, she is a little short on the leg in comparison to her length, but otherwise... I would say you have reason for concern.

What you need to do is obviously keep her safe - avoid anything that could cause someone to complain, and that might involve avoiding certain parks or certain times of day.

Have a good relationship with your vet and ideally a training class if possible, have LOTS of photographs of Poppy being a family pet, indoors, and even better, videos of you training her, playing with her etc.

IF someone attempts to seize her on the grounds that she may be type, ask politely if they could assess her in your home rather than take her (they actually DON'T have to take them away), and state that you will attend court to prove she is not dangerous if she is found to be 'type'. Do NOT sign anything that may give them permission to have her put down, even if they threaten you that you COULD be charged with owning an illegal breed which carries a prison sentence (some people are known to try and scare folk into signing their dog over to be put down).

Its highly unlikely if someone tries to seize her that she would be allowed to stay with you, but ask - it IS possible, the Met police certainly used to recommend it in cases where there has been no complaint, no evidence of dangerous behaviour or wrong doing and the owners have no previous convictions.

IF she is siezed and taken from you, you wouldn't be allowed to see her - you would need to get in touch with a solicitor who specialises in dog law, ideally, Trevor Cooper is the UK expert on this (he has a website so google his name). The process then would be, assuming shes found to be type, that you go to court and YOU have to prove she is not dangerous - the courts assume she IS dangerous unless you prove otherwise (so exactly the opposite to all other uk law!). Trevor Cooper would be able to advise you but the best course of action is to have a reputable qualified behaviourist (such as Sarah Fisher) do an assessment on your dog, which IS permitted.

In the meantime, I would think one of the best things anyone with a potentially 'type' dog can do is ensure they are SUPER friendly to ALL strangers in as many situations or contexts as possible. Make her think being examined is a game, make her think people staring in her eyes is a game, - I can tell you a fair amount about what behavioural assessments entail so you can actually teach her to respond in certain ways and 'proof' her somewhat to these things (they often challenge dogs to see how they respond).

Fingers x, nothing will happen - be sure to dress her up in pink stuff and make her as girly and non-status dog as is possible, if she will carry a toy, have her carry a soft teddy on walks - anything you can do to change public perception of her.

[Ari_RR]

This is a rather depressing picture..