John Rogerson course...

[emmabeth]

Hey hey folks - so its the third night, one more day to go then hooooome to my doggies!

Nettle and I are having a good time (not that good, we are not painting the town red!) not so much new ideas but new ways to think about things and new angles to look at things from, and confirmation that (for me at least, I can't speak for Nettle.. she will speak for herself when she returns home to her computer!) I do know my beans, as the saying goes (does it, maybe i made that up, im slightly over-tired!). I am certainly enjoying a bit of a confidence boost (who doesnt!).

For your delectation here is a short clip of John workin with a little tiny Jack puppy today - though you can't see it, what he is doing is giving the puppy very clear facial signals - first smiling broadly as the pup gets some food from his fingers, then after a few goes of that, frowning/looking sad and unwelcoming (not scary!) and the food being witheld.

I am a bit tired so forgive me if this isn't coherent but basically we are seeing what the pup responds to and how - this puppy like all bar one of the ones we saw today, reacted appropriately, ie, noticed the difference, backed off a bit, was a bit 'solicitous' (face licky, oohooh are you ok, hello im here, see meee).

The one who wasn't like that... was not a pet dog, he was a GSD of 8 months old (so, 4 months older than the Jack in the vid).. who lives in a kennel rather than in a house like the Jack does. He was much less aware of the facial signals and what they may mean/that they signify some change in the humans behaviour.

We also saw a pet cocker spaniel puppy and a pet Glen of Immal terrier pup, both 4 months old, but i will tell ou about those tomorrow!

[MPbandmom]

Emmabeth, I don't see the link.

[emmabeth]

i SAID i was knackered and incoherent.. I forgot to put the link in!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmWR1uo1ums

Try that...

[CoolDog]

Seems interesting...(seminar, that is.)

How can a dog learn a behavior without you teaching them? I mean, the dog can pick up human facial expressions, just as they can pick up human body language, so in a sense, you are teaching them without using your voice. You can't learn something without something teaching you first.

I would like to hear Emmabeth's and Nettle's take of this seminar when they come back, don't you?

[emmabeth]

What you can do when you get a puppy is to do the same things we were doing to test puppies (ie, bend over as he was doing and smile and feed a piece of food a few times then frown and not give food) so your puppy learns that smiling = good and frowning/sad face = not rewarding. You can also make a point of teaching that eye contact, smiling, patting knees = come to me, and sitting ignoring, not smiling = ignore me - puppies who spend enough time with humans will learn that anyway though. Puppies shut away from people won't learn it..

We also saw a very very worky springer spaniel pup - when he entered a room full of people, the nose went down and ALL he was interested in was following the scents and being busy busy busy - which is great for his owner as he is going to be a scent dog (drugs dog i think). It would be really bad if he was going to be a pet dog though, because he was far more interested in working than in anything else.

All three of the pet puppies were great, reasonably confident (a couple were a bit startled at being taken from their owners and let off leash in front of a room full of people but they recovered quickly), quick to start exploring, but all these puppies for the most part wanted to interact with people but also didn't bother people who ignored them.

In contrast there was a young gsd pup who when let off was extremely over confident - again i think shes a police dog, but she was very different. She was full on flinging herself at people and weeing, and hurtling around. Whilst confidence is good, this was a pup with a strong drive to explore and do stuff and very little sense of self preservation or impulse control - again, not suited to being a pet dog but hopefully her drives can be harnessed for police work.

Interestingly, John did say that there are some big differences in working with dogs from the USA, compared to dogs from UK or Irish shelters/rescues. Dogs in the US are much much more likely to have been shut away from humans, either in basements or garages or back yards, whereas from the UK and Ireland, this happens much less (the dogs hit the rescues sooner, because less people in the UK tolerate dogs outdoors barking and being neglected I think). So when a dog is pulled from a shelter to be a guineapig for one of his practical courses in the US.. those courses need to run for a fortnight to get the results - when he runs one in the UK its a week, if he runs them in Ireland he can get the same results in three or four days.

Anyway I am still filtering through my notes and stuff, but Nettle and I will be able to tell you much more in the next few days!

[wvvdiup1]

*bump*

I can't wait to hear more from the both of you, Emmabeth and Nettle!

[emmabeth]

Its all a bit 'bitty' in my mind and in my notes, as though John is very interesting and experienced, his talking style is rather 'freeform'.. and he tends to wander around the subject a bit.

Pulling some of the stuff I thought was interesting and thought provoking (if not hugely practical to do exactly as he says)....

Puppy socialisation - he confirms what I/we have been saying on here a long time - puppies NEED to be socialised to PEOPLE. Socsialisation with other dogs is much less necessary as firstly, they already HAVE learned a lot about other dogs from the ages of 3 to 8 weeks ( and they CAN learn a lot more if the breeder is top notch and is providing useful experience with other adult dogs as well as their own littermates).

Therefore, new owners should really concentrate hard on the people aspect - other dogs can wait a bit, ESPECIALLY, other dogs your pup lives with - r eally taking great pains to ensure your pup spends more time with you than with your other dogs, and t hat the time spent with your other dogs is spent constructively (ie, walking, training, sleeping, mutual grooming and NOT wild playing or learning other bad habits) will make a huge difference in later life.

Again he confirmed what I think about puppies socialising with other puppies - theres not only no need (they alreayd know how to be a puppy and have already met other puppies) but its liable to be bad for them, as they will ONLY learn bad things, things you don't want them practicing (because other puppies cannot teach them adult skills).

He talked a lot about why we see so many dog-dog aggression problems, namely that owners have little bond and therefore little control with their dogs, AND they think that dogs SHOULD meet and greet other dogs and play with them. Again this is something we say on here a lot. He asked us to list the things our dog would MOST like to do the moment it wakes up in a morning, whats the thing your dog enjoys MOST out of his day, each day. If that thing is just food or a walk... then we are missing a trick, they should really be super eager to interact with US (as well as enjoying their food, their walks etc etc).

He mentioned something i like and i think we do already do here to a certain extent, which is to find out HOW an owner has trained a dog to do something that has now become a problem.

For example, how have I trained Errol to yell at people who knock at the door - well only strangers knock.. therefore the knock = stranger. So how do I untrain that, to start with, he isnt allowed to rush the door any more and ALL incomers through the door knock on it, so now knocking does NOT = 'must be a stranger'.

There is much much more and Nettle will be along when she recovers as well, so ill add more in when my mind unwinds a bit!

[wvvdiup1]

*bump*

[minkee]

Really interesting to hear all this, thanks for taking the time

[wvvdiup1]

*bump*

As I've said, me too!

[Erica]

I also like reading about all this.

[ClareMarsh]

I'm gripped too, more please

[wvvdiup1]

*bump*

[emmabeth]

Ok next installment, are we all sitting comfortably??

John does like to take things to extremes a bit, though he does state that he doesn't expect everyone to want or be able to do these things. Whilst personally I think for the vast majority of people (and I include pet dog owners and dog-geeks alike in that) these things are just NOT practical or in many cases even achieveable, they DO bear thinking about for a while and certain elements can be used.

For example:

Puppy socialisation classes: Bearing in mind, we already know that most puppies have already spent 0 - 8 weeks with their litter mates and mother (though she may well take little interest after 4 weeks) and in an ideal world, will actually have also met other animals and adult dogs in that time too, so socialisation classes are about socialising our pups with the real world and human beings, not other puppies...

His ideal is DAILY classes, not weekly, 1 class a night for a week should give a pup a real grounding in how humans live.

He goes further, IDEALLY, those classes would not take place in a hall or similarly unrealistic dog training venue, but in peoples homes. So the first night it would be in his house, he would provide the tea, coffee, puppy toys and any food treats. The next night in one of the clients houses, and so on. So say you have six or seven people in the class, then you would spend a couple of hours in seven different homes through the week, giving your puppy the opportunity to experience seven different living rooms, seven different journeys out, and all that this entails. Even better, if the clients have steady healthy adult dogs then each puppy can meet those dogs (or dog) for a short period, and also each puppy would go into another room with the trainer (and their owner) and do some toy play training there before going back to the living room. So actually each puppy experiences 14 different rooms in 7 different houses. It occurs to me also that each puppy meets 7 sets of owners (which may be more than one person) in all these locatiosn so starts to generalise that all people = safe.

John goes even further though and he suggests that ideally, each family would swap puppies and take home another clients puppy for the night!

Now, to the practicalities - I agree wtih the main part, but I don't think I could reliably find a small group of new puppy owners who would be willing to invite a load of strangers and their puppies over, or would have the house space. I would struggle to fit that many people in my living room, and quite what I would do with my existing dogs, I don't know!

That doesn't mean that the basics of the idea are wrong, it WOULD be really beneficial to do it, and to do it at 8/9 weeks old (bearing in mind the experts now seem to agree that the optimal window for socialisation and habituation is 3 to 12 weeks, with some people saying its actually more like 3 to 10 weeks). I think in reality, seeking out a venue that closely resembles a home (a back room in a pub perhaps, or a trainers house if they have a big enough house) and setting out a clear program for owners so that they visit a new place every evening for a week or a fortnight might be more achieveable.

I have to say though that I do not like the idea of handing my puppy over to someone else at a training class for an evening - whilst it is crucial puppies get the valuable experiences early on, its SO easy for them to get a BAD experience and I think that this does create a huge risk of that bad experience happening.

A good compromise for THAT though, may be to spend a night or two sleeping over at someone elses home (or a couple of peoples homes) in the first two weeks (people you know really well and trust) and perhaps going out for an hour or so leaving them puppy sitting (with strict instructions).

He also says that he would like to leave a pup to sleep in an outdoor kennel and in a car overnight once or twice too - again valuable experiences but for ME the risks of something dreadful happening are too high (but then, our car is parked on the street, his may well not be).

The point is though, getting these real life experiences packed into the first few weeks is crucial, and I do agree with that.

Another thing he discussed, relating to puppy classes/dog training classes, was to have them set up MUCh more like a normal social evening, perhaps like a restaurant or bar - so instead of everyone sitting around in a circle on chairs, peopl ewould be grouped at tables, would have a glass of wine or a coffee and a meal, with their puppies/young dogs with them. I think this is a brilliant idea, and fortunately where I live, I'll BET there are some pubs I could convince to allow me to do that in their function rooms. Not everyone will be so lucky though.

What all this does, and its a bit of a banner John wants waving (and I do agree) is to create dogs that society WILL welcome and tolerate in public places - one of the reasons he no longer does practical seminars in the USA is that he cannot find venues where he can train dogs out doors off the leash in 'real life' settings any more, because society and the local communities do not want dogs around, which is a huge shame.

Other countries, particularly Belgium and France, have dogs all over the place, and its highly unusual to go to a restaurant and NOT have a dog under the table!

Moving on to classes for older dogs - these NEED to be in the places these dogs will walk and exercise as adults, so OUTside, in parks and playing fields, and ideally, different locations each day/week so that young pups and dogs are getting the idea that training and commands mean the same things wherever they go.

So.. thoughts on this folks??

[jacksdad]

John does like to take things to extremes a bit, though he does state that he doesn't expect everyone to want or be able to do these things. Whilst personally I think for the vast majority of people (and I include pet dog owners and dog-geeks alike in that) these things are just NOT practical or in many cases even achievable, they DO bear thinking about for a while and certain elements can be used.

Ok...thank god it wasn't just me thinking this......

Having not heard of John before, I went searching for "stuff" by him and in the process found APDT (USA's APDT) media repository which has audio recording of about the last 10 years of their yearly conferences. you can buy individual speakers and listen to them. John has 2 talks from 2010.

So the little over 3 hour talk I bought was very thought provoking, but there were times I had the same frustration I feel with Dr. Dunbar sometimes. Basically..."cool, neat, great...IF you have a puppy and are getting to start with a clean slate. But what about dogs from shelters/rescues? I do realize part of the answer is...use your brain to apply the concept or essence of what is said, but still. would be nice if they weren't so puppy centric in their presentations sometimes. No everyone starts with a puppy.

I did like his going a bit deeper in to what truly ignoring your dog looks like when you come home and get the over the top greeting. tonight I tried using his some of his concept. Came though the door, said hi to jack, asked him to go up the stairs, redirected him to his toy...then went about a few other tasks that took up the 2 minutes he said to ignore..THEN I gave Jack a real hello..pets, talking to etc. it was the FASTEST he has EVER calmed down and when I did greet him he didn't wind back up.

I also liked his questioning of formal class content. that it was too competition orientated and not real world orientated for the pet owner who just wants to know how to have a well behaved dog. Looking back on my PetSmart class I took right after getting Jack, this in part goes a long way to explaining why I don't do over half the stuff from that class today.

Oh, one other thing, and this frustrated me, and I do realize that a 3 hour conference presentation covering the wide range of stuff he did doesn't allow for going too in depth, but I have this same frustration with Dr. Dumbar, is the negativity towards treats. I absolutely get what they are saying about the risks of over dependence on treats and how it's better to phase them out and use praise and toys in some cases etc. BUT, what they don't go into, at least from what I have heard/seen is HOW to do that particularly IF you don't have a toy oriented dog. HOW do you raise the value of a toy to the level of food if you have a non toy motivated/interested dog in the context of an adult or non puppy age dog that you didn't get to work with during those formative puppy weeks?

Over all I completely enjoyed it. Best $44 I have spent on dog education in a while. If nothing else, I felt validated in my belief that it is ok to listen to your dog because they can give us clues into what they need/want or why they are doing what they are doing. And the encouragement to question, question, question training ideas and methods.