John Rogerson course...

[Nettle]

I have been pondering whether to contribute at all to this thread and have decided that I do owe it to anyone thinking of attending anything similar by this speaker. So this is once and for all: I won't be saying any more and please don't PM me either because this is as far as it goes from me.

I would not recommend it to anyone and I would not attend another with this speaker.

Simply because anyone with the intelligence and experience to sort the wheat from the chaff (as Emms has just done in her post above) doesn't need it, and anyone who comes to learn from a position of inexperience is highly likely to take on dangerous or inaccurate information.

[emmabeth]

I reckon I agree with that too..

The problem with most of the people doing seminars/lectures today is that they will, sometimes by necessity, sometimes because they are perhaps not academic enough to cover ground efficiently, miss out or gloss over a LOT of things.

Ian Dunbar does it too and honestly I would be surprised if any of the top names don't - the basics are 'taken for granted' and what each person decides are 'the basics' can vary slightly. There are also some fairly extreme ideas some people have (particularly John) that they will describe without perhaps qualifying those ideas with the 'safety measures' they would also be taking.

For instance, John does something with puppies to teach them to cope with restraint that I certainly WOULD NOT describe or advise to the average puppy owner, and wouldn't even try myself, unless it was with pups between 3 - 5 weeks old, ie, before they are sufficiently aware enough to be frightened or worried by it. By the time a pup is home with its new owner, the scope for a huge problem to be caused is to me, far too big to try it.

[ClareMarsh]

Now, to the practicalities - I agree wtih the main part, but I don't think I could reliably find a small group of new puppy owners who would be willing to invite a load of strangers and their puppies over, or would have the house space. I would struggle to fit that many people in my living room, and quite what I would do with my existing dogs, I don't know!

I live in a flat, we literally would not have the space and I have to say the idea of that many likely not yet toilet trained pups in someone's house sounds like an awful lot of white wine vinegar and scrubbing to me Ted's puppy training was in a hall and to be honest with that many pups (likely of different sizes etc) I think you'd need someone with a VERY big house to get decent distance between them to properly control the experiences

I have to say though that I do not like the idea of handing my puppy over to someone else at a training class for an evening - whilst it is crucial puppies get the valuable experiences early on, its SO easy for them to get a BAD experience and I think that this does create a huge risk of that bad experience happening.

A good compromise for THAT though, may be to spend a night or two sleeping over at someone elses home (or a couple of peoples homes) in the first two weeks (people you know really well and trust) and perhaps going out for an hour or so leaving them puppy sitting (with strict instructions).

I've got to say when I read that part my heart actually accelerated There is NO WAY (even without knowing what I know about how small mistakes can have a big impact at that age) that I would hand over a pup, or to be honest any dog for that matter, to what is in effect a complete stranger. You have no idea what they are like, how much of the training they are bought in to, their competence level, safety of where they live etc etc etc.

Edited to add: Neither would I really want the responsibility of looking after someone's else's puppy!

Sorry, lost it there a bit I do think your compromise is a good one though, I did this with Ted as soon as he could travel (vaccinations done as I have to let him out at service stations to wee and you have no idea what's been there). I did it because I travel around a lot so he needed to be comfortable with it and I have to say he is, I can take him anywhere and he will quickly settle and now doesn't even need to keep me in sight at all times. But I did this for weeks and weeks where he would be glued to my side and only when he was ok with me leaving a room without him did I do so, that meant for a few months he pretty much went to the bathroom every time I did, was in there when I showered, was basically like my shadow.

So I still didn't leave him (even in a room if he wasn't sure) with anyone and to be honest I wouldn't change that, in the time that he has grown in confidence with the locations and people they have learnt what I do and don't accept and how he is treated so I now trust them with him (I did before in terms of safety but not in terms of interactions). These are the people I would leave him with now if I needed to, I saw too many bad interactions (even when I was there saying no don't do that) for me to trust many people until I'd seen them with him lots, maybe I am an overprotective mum

Obviously this took time but it was worth it as now he's relaxed when we go somewhere new and just settles in as if he lives there , but I needed him to have this skill, if I had had no need to travel around with him and if he would therefore largely only stay at home then I question whether a few random experiences at a young age would set him in as good stead if they were then not repeated for say 6 months? I say this because when we stayed at the same holiday apartment a few weeks ago as we did 6 months ago when he was 15 weeks old he was a bit freaked out by the decking area and I had to do some work desensitising him to it, when he was there 6 months ago he was out on the decking at every available opportunity so he clearly didn't remember this

He also says that he would like to leave a pup to sleep in an outdoor kennel and in a car overnight once or twice too - again valuable experiences but for ME the risks of something dreadful happening are too high (but then, our car is parked on the street, his may well not be).

Is this valuable? I mean, if you envisage them doing this in the future then yes but I cannot forsee a situation where I would do this (again not just with Ted but any dog) and again would the experience carry over to the emergency situation it might happen in? If we had to sleep in the car then I'd be there and my guess would be that Ted would be ok as if I'm there then he'd relax as much as I managed to.

The point is though, getting these real life experiences packed into the first few weeks is crucial, and I do agree with that.

This is the real point isn't it, rather than the specifics he might have suggested, it's what do you need the dog to be able to do. This is how I approached it with Ted, he needed to be ok staying away with me, ok in the car on trains and buses, ok walking in various locations, ok with all sizes of dogs and all sorts of people (and with random people coming into the flat) etc etc. I tried to cram all this in before he was 16 weeks and I think for the things I missed that if you deal with the scary stuff the right way then the dog gains confidence and trust in you and each scary thing becomes easier to conquer. But what do I know, I'm far far far from an expert

What all this does, and its a bit of a banner John wants waving (and I do agree) is to create dogs that society WILL welcome and tolerate in public places - one of the reasons he no longer does practical seminars in the USA is that he cannot find venues where he can train dogs out doors off the leash in 'real life' settings any more, because society and the local communities do not want dogs around, which is a huge shame.

I'm totally with him on this, the difference in terms of where Ted could go when we were in Cornwall compared to back home in London is massive. And even though he hasn't ever been in a pub (too busy near where we live and with a tiny dog asking for trouble) he was fine last week in both pubs, shops and restaurants. I think this is reflective of him being confident and trusting me so he copes well in new situations. And it is also why we need to move to Cornwall immediately

Moving on to classes for older dogs - these NEED to be in the places these dogs will walk and exercise as adults, so OUTside, in parks and playing fields, and ideally, different locations each day/week so that young pups and dogs are getting the idea that training and commands mean the same things wherever they go.

The lady who ran Ted's puppy classes does most of her training in Greenwich Park, I hadn't even considered that you might not do this, but totally makes sense

These are my thoughts as I found it very interesting to read all this but obviously I've only been a dog owner for 9 months ( blimey) so some of what I have written may be miles off being "right"

[bendog]

He also says that he would like to leave a pup to sleep in an outdoor kennel and in a car overnight once or twice too - again valuable experiences but for ME the risks of something dreadful happening are too high (but then, our car is parked on the street, his may well not be).

I wouldn't even say they were valuable experiences. I would NEVER ask Ben to sleep in the car, unless I was sleeping in there too!

Nor would I hand an 8 week old puppy over to anyone, even someone I knew well. I'd let pretty well anyone have Ben for the night, because I know he's calm enough to be ok with almost all situations, and won't get scared by one bad experience anymore, but I wouldn't have done this when he was tiny.

I think for the things I missed that if you deal with the scary stuff the right way then the dog gains confidence and trust in you and each scary thing becomes easier to conquer.

I agree with this.
Ben has been camping with us, on holidays to Wales, the Lake District, Scotland, stayed in caravans, tents, hotels and other peoples houses, been in cars, trains, buses, boats. In shops, pubs, been to the beach, the woods, climbed mountains, etc. We didn't/couldn't cram all that in before he was 16 weeks. Especially as I was only 13 then and couldn't drive anyway. I don't think I know 100 people to introduce to a pup, and most of the people I do know wouldn't be prepared to come around and spend time interacting with my dogs even now, they'll say hello, maybe play with them a little, but for the most part my friends and family are not "dog" people, some of them like dogs, some hate dogs, a few have dogs themselves but are the kind of owners who think a walk once a week is enough, my aunty for example when she first saw Ben, shrieked because he looked like a rat, and wouldn't touch him. Ben saw maybe 30 people at most by 16 weeks, and of course many many people since then, and he is fine with people. He was always fine with dogs until his bad experience - which shows that all the socialisation in the world won't prevent a dog developing fear reactivity if it is attacked as an adult.

Poppy we didn't get until 11 weeks, and she wasn't socialised all that much, because again I didn't know anyone who would come round just to see the pup (well, mostly because she wasn't my pup), I took her out in a bag when I walked Ben, but living where we did we didn't see many people or dogs anyway, so as far as I'm concerned her main socialisation has only properly started since we moved and she became ours, which is well after the critical period, but she's done brilliantly with any dogs we meet, and is fine with walking near people, though is still nervous at first if they come in the house/try to touch her.

I'm wary of dogs in pubs - you don't always see a dog sitting under a table, and I know a friends dog was badly attacked when walking through a pub and a dog leapt out from under a table at it and ripped all it's shoulder open. I have taken Ben in pubs fairly often, if we've stopped off for a drink or a meal during a walk, but generally, if I was going out specifically to go to the pub then I'd leave him at home.

[Sarah83]

A lot of his "ideallys" could be extremely problematic for someone who doesn't drive is the first thing I thought. And like Jacksdad I would like to see more aimed at those of us who don't start with a tiny puppy. You don't seem to get seminars or anything aimed at socialising the adult dog. Or at least I've never seen one.

[Ari_RR]

Well.. I think it's a mistake to interpret seminars or classes, or even many comments in this forum for that matter, as precise instructions applicable to any situation. I think they should be viewed more like ideas, thoughts, general points, even though if expressed through a concrete example.

Like - having 7 puppies go from one place to another, 1 evening at each place.. Right, not practical to have 7 puppies in a small apartment.. But let's forget the details for a moment - let's understand the idea, and if we like the idea - perhaps we can implement it within our constraints.. Socializing puppies in different environments under supervision, having all owners sharing the goals and methodology, if this is a good idea, then we can alter the details.. Maybe not 7, maybe 3? Maybe not an evening at each place but an hour?

I actually like this particular idea...

[emmabeth]

Yep, its a very good point Ari (and tis why I am setting out what was said for you guys!)...

Right, so, despite the fact I find Johns 'style' somewhat hard work to follow... I AM going to be attending two short lectures (well, two hours each) that he is doing next month ... one on dog v dog aggression and one on dog v human aggression.

Again I'll take good notes and report back for your benefit (This is costing peanuts though this one, just a contribution to the venue and buffet lunch).

[jacksdad]

Actually Ari, you just saved me some typing. I was going to say something very similar.

In the case of John Rogerson, unlike Emma who got to go to a multi day class with him, I have only listened to a 3 hour talk he did for APDT. IF you separate out concept from steps to implement I liked a lot of what he had to say regarding general training concepts. At the concept level some things were pretty much what we advise. heck one thing he talked about the first person I thought of was Fundog, it was basically what she does with one of her dogs when meeting a stranger. Another, walking our dogs. Pretty much what we advise here. Loose lead more important than heel and his suggested method for loose lead was very, very close to what we advise here. So not everything I heard him say was bizarre or something I would not be comfortable with at the concept level. And some of the implementation suggestions, again not all that crazy and similar to here.

Like Emma mentions in one of her remarks, it was nice to get validation of somethings. For me, it was listening to our dogs, trying to see their perspective and try and figure out/understand why they are doing whatever it is they are doing, and train for more than your "living room/class room" (aka proofing) etc.

However, some of what he said in more specific topics like puppies and "aggression" cases did really cause me to think, and think a lot over the last couple days. Considering Jack is my first dog...might be a bold statement, but I am not so sure I agree with some of the things had had to say when he got to the more specific topics.

Puppies aren't my strongest area of knowledge and I have zero real world experience with them, but even still some of what he suggested I would NEVER dog. Like Ari says, I might take the high level concept and come up with another way to implement, but I would never some of the things he suggested as he suggested doing them. Not just because a 3 hour talk in no way prepares me to try, but because the implementation example doesn't pass the "If you wouldn't do it to your human baby, don't do it to a dog" test.

On the aggression topic, I think he made some really good points about what causes dogs to be aggressive etc. BUT I do not agree with some of his conclusions and suggestions and comments about how to address it. Until Nettle posted her comments I was starting to question my self..maybe I'm not really understanding things as well as I thought I was and who am I to think I might know better than someone who has been doing this for 20/30 years. But in light of some things I have been learning in regards to nature/nurture and fear and such...I am thinking my "hummm...that doesn't sound right" might not be so far off. before I give examples, I want to listen to his talk a second time.

I do still feel it was the best $44 I have spent in a while. In just 3 hours I got validation I wasn't on the wrong track in some areas. I got challenged to really think about what I thought I knew/know, and because of this had this urge to go train something. Would I implement some of his ideas...yes in some things, but not necessarily as he would. In
others, not just NO, but HELL NO.

I am going to buy his other talk he gave at the 2010 conference.

Emma, if you feel up to it, please continue to share your notes and thoughts. I am interested in hearing your take. he covered a lot of what you have already shared, but in VERY condensed form.

[chay]

extremely interesting - thankyou for the rundown, emmabeth and nettle both.

[runlikethewind]

Thank you both for the run down and comments.

Jacksdad - it is worth my buying the broadcast for the seminar you watched? Is there anything vital in dog-dog and dog--person aggression we don't already know about?

[wvvdiup1]

Emma and Nettle, thank you for your posts and comments.

From what the both of you have said, especially Emma, it sounds as though this man may be "thinking outside the box", if you will. However, it seems to me that Mr. Rogerson hasn't really thought his methods clearly though and I'm seeing potential problems developing in his methods. For one thing, I don't think "swapping puppies" with anyone is going to make the dogs any more socialized than what they are or will be if their owners take time and make the efforts to work and train their dogs.

The other thing that really irks me is the part where according to Emma, when she writes, "He also says that he would like to leave a pup to sleep in an outdoor kennel and in a car overnight once or twice too...", who in their right mind would leave a puppy in an outdoor kennel and in a car overnight once or twice? Not only would one risk the theft of their puppy, but they would be endangering the puppy as well.

Emma, I'm sorry but if I was you, I wouldn't spend any more of my hard-earned money to this charlatan! First of all, experts would have sound proof or evidence backed by experiences, including scientific studies, of other experts in this field. If he claims to have such credentials, I would like to see them and check them out myself.

I don't make this post a rant, but there are other things that have been said that sound "fishy" to me in this man's methods. Some of us here on this forum have been dog trainers for a long time, granted we are also keeping an open mind, while others here are learning more about dog training. I'm sorry, but when I'm "listening" to something someone is saying, I'm also "thinking", and what I'm seeing in my mind from my dog training experiences, I'm seeing outcomes that are not necessarily good and I've been training dogs for a very long time.

Or, did I miss something here?

Another thing, I think it was quite interesting to read that he can't find any venues in the United States to give his lectures/demonstrations. I find that hard to believe of how big the United States is and how we have all these venues with these lectures/demonstrations and he can't get into one of them? Fishy!

[jacksdad]

Thank you both for the run down and comments.

Jacksdad - it is worth my buying the broadcast for the seminar you watched? Is there anything vital in dog-dog and dog--person aggression we don't already know about?

It was actually a audio recording only, but the accompanying powerpoint slide were also made available. It was a 3 hour talk he gave at the annual APDT conference. He bounced around basically 3 topics. general training concepts, choosing and raising and training puppies, and dog aggression.

I personally didn't feel there was anything vital he shared that you probably don't already know.

I am going to listen to it one more time and take notes so I can better reference his points/thoughts.

[emmabeth]

His credentials good, they stand up and are real!, yeah - hes been in the biz a long long time - what I think though, is that he is SO far removed from ordinary pet dog ownership... that he doesn't entirely realise how impractical some of his suggestions are.

HE undoubtedly does know loads of people he could leave a puppy with, I would think HE parks his car on his own land well away from anyone who could or would interfere with it ... etc etc,

Also as I said before, he assumes you understand the basics and doesn't qualify all he says with all the provisos and 'make sure your pup is ok with xyz' stuff first because as far as he is concerned you already know that..

So as for leaving a dog in the car all night -w ell no I wouldn't, but then I would have little need to do so - but he means 'if your puppy is fine being left for a decent length of time, if you can park your car somewhere secure, if its warm enough, if......'

I can sort of see the point in doing it this way, if you had to spend the time going through all the 'ifs and buts' of everything, then you'd double the length of each seminar!

Sandy - he can (and did) do seminars and lectures in the USA - hes stopped THAT due to the rigmarole of getting the appropriate temporary work visas. Its practical hands on dog training he can't do there, because he says (and I do agree) that theres little point running a training class entirely indoors, when its OUTdoors we need our dogs to train, learn and be under control.

[jacksdad]

....that he doesn't entirely realize how impractical some of his suggestions are.....{referencing typical pet owners}

That is a really good way to sum up some of the "really?...did you just say that" reactions I got listening to him.

which is really, really funny because one of his "soap box" points is we need to be building the typical training class to be practical and applicable to the typical pet dog owner and what they need, what they can do, etc verse stealing from competition.

I just got done listening to his other talk from the 2010 APDT conference and it was more focused on not so much how to train, but what to train and why in his opinion we are seeing problems that didn't exist 20, 30, 40 years ago. Again, not a whole lot of amazing revelations, you hang out here long enough you hear basically the same stuff. But again, nice to hear validation via another source thinking/saying the same thing.

[Sarah83]

See I can see the point in having your pup sleep in an outdoor kennel, a car and various other places. It might not be viable for the majority of us but I can see what the point behind it is. I don't think there's anything fishy about him or his methods, I just think he's not really in tune with the average dog owner. And I think a lot of what Emmabeth has mentioned can be adjusted in some way to make it more feasible for the average person.