General Comment for General Chat.

[Flyby]

I've not been here very long, but I've learned an awful lot, and just as importantly changed my perceptions of how my dogs may percieve what I'm doing.

I'm not an expert, I wouldn't even say especially well informed, but let's just say I consider myself a willing apprentice.

There are all sorts of things which once upon a time I thought made sense, but now seems daft. For example, (and I'm not drawing directly from any particular thread or post), there was a perception I had from childhood that you should be able to take your dogs meal away without them being aggressive to you. I remember a gamekeeper about 3 or 4 years ago being very proud that he could stick his hand in any one of his dogs bowls and they wouldn't make a sound. It may be that particular pearl of wisdom is derived from the expression that a dog shouldn't bite the hand that feeds it, but now I'm better informed, it seems such an inanely stupid thing to want to do, which has no particular purpose other than sending some very bizarre messages to your undoubtedly confused dog.

Same with punishment. Sometimes it's hard to resist punishment when a dog is being too willful and frankly doing the wrong thing which it absolutely cannot be allowed to do, say chase sheep or postmen etc. I know that sounds like a quasi-confession that I've done that, and yes it is, - I have, but only in my personal 'dark ages' with dogs previous to the one I have now. We're not talking beatings or zaps with collars, but definitely negative re-inforcement. I have been tempted by the darkside, and when Odin was a pup with hopeless recall, I actually ordered a shock collar, but the heavens smiled that day and they were out of stock, and I thought better of it anyway. - Phew!

Thing is, my dogs are 2 and 3 years old, and I am closer to them in different ways than I have been with either of my two previous terriers. I was very close to these terriers too, especially the middle one, but only later in life, when the daftness was subdued, everybody was used to the daily routine and nobody misbehaved and there was no situation requiring 'training'. I feel I can trust my dogs more, not because they are more trustworthy, they're not angels, but they do not hide or mask their intentions from me. The concept of being grateful a dog will growl is counter intuitive, but of course, a growl is a warning, and when the house is on fire, you don't run around turning off the fire alarm.

My point is this. There's a handicap in getting the message across. People who don't understand the philosophy you're trying to promote can and often do imagine you are a 'lame' individual who won't punish your dog because you don't want to hurt his feelings, and this business of positve re-inforcement is just like the 'veggie' equivalent to raw meat and good old fashioned discipline. It's a fad, and once it's passed, everything will go back to the way it was before.

Wrong. Thing is, it sooooo isn't. It works. Big time. You don't even have to be good at it to see a difference in the way you interact with your dogs.

[Ari_RR]

Well said, FlyBy!

[WufWuf]

when the house is on fire, you don't run around turning off the fire alarm.

I love that Flyby and am totally stealing it for my own

My point is this. There's a handicap in getting the message across. People who don't understand the philosophy you're trying to promote can and often do imagine you are a 'lame' individual who won't punish your dog because you don't want to hurt his feelings, and this business of positve re-inforcement is just like the 'veggie' equivalent to raw meat and good old fashioned discipline. It's a fad, and once it's passed, everything will go back to the way it was before.

This is often the attitude I come across and in some ways I'd say it's easier for me as I'm female so I'm not "expected" to be tough so I probably don't get quite the ribbing you'd be open too!

Lately I've been having great results using Dr. Ian Dunbars words, I find that it takes people out of their comfort zone if I say "I use modern science based training". They usually look a little bemused but curious as I don't think it ever occurred to them that such a thing could exist. It also some how makes ME feel less fluffy when I say this and give me conviction in my words. You can also tell fairly quickly who's open to hearing about it and who's not which saves me getting frustrated trying to explain myself

I do think you are right and that this is the way of the future, I'm looking forward to the day when the majority of people no longer want to hurt or scare their animals in the name of training.

[bendog]

Well said Flyby.

Regarding peoples perceptions of positive training: I find it's best to avoid getting into discussions and let your dogs behaviour do the talking!
I often have people comment on how well behaved Ben is, and people who knew her before say how much Sash has improved since I've had her. I also sometimes take the dogs to the shops with us, and whilst boyfriend goes in, I wait outside with the dogs. To keep them distracted and stop them wanting to say hello to every single person I run through a few little tricks with them whilst we wait and it often gets peoples attention and they want to know how I taught it, so I explain a bit about positive R. Cute tricks like high five are great for this

To add to what Flyby said, the biggest plus point for me about positive training is that your dogs like you, enjoy spending time with you, and are not afraid of you. For me, the point of dog ownership is the bond you have with your dogs, I didn't want my dogs to do what I told them because I had forced them too, I didn't want to have dogs that were scared of me, or miserable all the time, so positive training was the only way to go. I could have the best behaved dog in the world, and it would mean nothing to me if the dog didn't trust me. I'm very lucky that I always instinctively looked to positive training with the first dog who was really mine (Ben), despite all the misguided advice I was getting (I was told to pretend to eat out of his bowl before giving it to him - and actually tried this a few times before it felt too stupid, went to a training session where I was told to teach him to sit I should yank the lead upwards hard etc). But I always felt that if my dog could sit, stay, down, recall, was good with people/children/dogs and was walked enough in a variety of places, and played with at home (fetch, tug, football) then that was enough. This forum has helped me realise that actually, far more important than any of this, is that your dog trusts you, and feels safe with you, and that YOU are responsible for protecting your dog from things that scare them. It's also given me so many more ideas for games to play, and tricks to teach, ways to have fun with my dogs, far beyond the amount that I used to do, and my dogs and I have such a great time together because of it. I love having somewhere to talk about my dogs as much as I want, and the wealth of knowledge on all things "dog" especially that on health/feeding that can be found here!

[Horace's Mum]

I had one of the loveliest comments recently, which said it all for me. I was talking to someone I have recently met, and discussing how Horus used to be. He has a collie who is a fairly typical bored and anxious bossy collie *****, and I was trying to explain how changing a few small things would make her life better and less stressful with very little effort on his part, and also how to progress from using lots of rewards to the day when you need very little obvious reward ie food. Somewhere in the conversation I commented on the fact that Horus "listens" to what I ask almost all the time, I can move him anywhere without touching him, I can ask him to stay/come/do any number of tricks, when he know I don't have food etc, it is just part of our life. His comment then was "and he WANTS to do it for you" - and that to me is the crux of it all. You can get dogs to do loads of stuff by many means, but it was very clearly obvious to him, who hardly knew me or Horus then, that Horus just loves to work for me, he waits for jobs he can do for me, and we are a partnership. Initially he wanted to work for the food, but now it is ME he wants to please - and not because he is a breed who does that inherently. He is a lurcher, and has very definite lurcher moments, but he just never ever stops talking to me and I don't think I would have discovered that by training him any other way - TBH he would probably be PTS by now if I had tried training him any other way.

I just love positive work, and it is fascinating to me now to be using it on another species entirely and watching their little baby pony heads working stuff out for themselves!

[bendog]

Yes (and very well done to you with Horus, I know you've worked wonders)
My favourite proof of positive training, and the partnership it creates, is being able to walk the dogs off lead almost anywhere and trust that they'll stay with me/come back to me - to see a happy dog enjoying their walk, checking in regularly with you, and hurtling towards you as fast as they can when you call is the best feeling ever

It's something I take for granted with mine, since I know even if Pop goes chasing something she won't disappear too far, but there's nothing that gives me that sense of partnership more than when it's just me and the dogs walking together with no leads or anything to get in the way.

[Suzette]

when the house is on fire, you don't run around turning off the fire alarm.

I love that Flyby and am totally stealing it for my own

Me too! What a perfectly succinct way to help folks understand this concept!

Flyby, everything in your post was very well said. I too have learned so much here that has benefited my dog, our relationship and my immediate family. (A happy, healthy, well-behaved dog definitely makes for a happy home all around! )

[jacksdad]

when the house is on fire, you don't run around turning off the fire alarm.

I love that Flyby and am totally stealing it for my own

No kidding, I am steeling that as well.

Flyby, I agree 100% that how "positive reinforcement" training is explained offend does leave a whole lot of details out. It really isn't about "the treats". treats are such a "small" part of it...but an OH SO POWERFUL part...but still really a small part. For me the entire package promotes understanding your dog, building the bond, the trust, the desired to worth together, etc. there is sooooo much more to it than just giving your dog treats.

Funny you would mention the "passing fad" perception. I just read an interview with Karen Pryor and they touched on this very thing. She was one of the key people who got the concepts and ideas of operant conditioning into the dog world. "funny" side note, her don't shoot the dog book...she says she didn't write it for dog training, it's original audience was humans working with humans. She goes on to explain how it ended up with the title it did and which helped it end up in the dog world. was kind of a cool story...anyway. She indicated she was worried for a while that if something happened to her and a few other key people the movement away from "traditional" (aka punishment based) training would fade and die. But it seems to be on the verge of critical mass. It is spreading beyond dog training into other areas. And in the dog world, it's making inroads into "hold out" areas such as hunting, police/military etc.

If things continue to progress as they are, there is every reason to believe that non punishment based training will be the predominate training method. that punishment methods will trade places as the "odd" way to do things.

So now that we got people training without punishment, we next need to grow basic dog behavioral knowledge.

[minkee]

When my fire alarm goes off it usually means I've been cooking. And have to walk past 4 other flats on the way past to turn it off again! Not sure how this fits the analogy though....

I like the term 'modern science based training' ... it's not exactly catchy though, is it! And neither is Kikopup's 'Progressive reinforcement training'. And, I forget who said it now, but you were right. Even 'Positive' does sound very much like a wishy washy permissive sort of thing, and doesn't get across the whole scope of what's involved.

[DogNut]

There are some very good issues raised here. Most dog owners I know are not "pure positive" and are not convinced by the arguments given here and on similar forums. I use predominately positive reinforcement but not exclusively, and I am trying to understand the passion that is expressed by most people here. If "we" are to succeed in widespread adoption of the methods that are approved, and abolish those that are not, we need a way to convince the "other side" that they are indeed better. There is really much agreement between "balanced" training and "pure positive", and I think there needs to be an honest dialog and discussion of different viewpoints. Hopefully I am not overstepping the boundaries by even suggesting we attempt this, but positive reinforcement methods work best on people, too, and not much is accomplished by extreme hatred and accusation of those who are not 100% "positive". That only creates polarization and anger and will never win any "converts". Just my humble opinion. If any find this offensive please let me know.

[wvvdiup1]

Well said Flyby! You're never too old to learn and you appreciate what you have learned. Mistakes happen but they're part of the learning process, so never give up or be discourage, it's a learning process that will be a part of your experience, therefore, your knowledge.

We've all been there, however, remember learning is a life-long process that builds wisdom not matter what you're trying to master, including working with dogs and/or other species.

[Fundog]

When my fire alarm goes off it usually means I've been cooking. And have to walk past 4 other flats on the way past to turn it off again! Not sure how this fits the analogy though....

I like the term 'modern science based training' ... it's not exactly catchy though, is it! And neither is Kikopup's 'Progressive reinforcement training'. And, I forget who said it now, but you were right. Even 'Positive' does sound very much like a wishy washy permissive sort of thing, and doesn't get across the whole scope of what's involved.

Us too. We actually disconnected our smoke alarms from the walls.

As for a term, how about "Love & Logic for Animals?" (See "Parenting With Love & Logic" to see what I'm referring to.)