Could do with some honest opinions

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jakesmom
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Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:35 pm

Could do with some honest opinions

Post by jakesmom »

Hello Everyone,

I got some great advice on here last year, but I don't suppose you remember our problems -- so I'll just give a very quick rundown.

Our 5 yr old rescued German Shepherd attacked my partner's granddaughter and exhibited really strange behaviour. Owing to this, he is being treated for epilepsy. (If you want to know more or refresh your memory, do a search for my post under Dog Training Advice "What would you do").

But since last posting everything's gone downhill. And to tell the truth I'm embarrassed, and didn't want to admit how badly things had gone, so I didn't post. Or, to be more honest still, I think my OH has lost the plot, and I'm fighting a losing battle. And now I could really do with some moral support, and maybe some advice and your honest opinions.

To give you a little more info on what's been happening.

Once Jake was given the phenobarital things settled down well. The medication seemed to be working a treat, and he was just having what I can best describe as absences, and occasional growls or barks at non-existing 'things'.

I kept a close eye on his body language and got to sense when things were not right with him. If I felt unsure about him, I wouldn't let him near people without his muzzle on. But then with his muzzle on, he became really fearful of Heidi, our dalmation, and he also growled aggressively at both me and John, so I stopped letting him in altogether unless he knew visitors really, really well, and his body language said he was happy.

Then one day my younger brother visited. We put Jake outside as normal. My brother asked me to let Jake in, but I said no, because he didn't look comfortable. Both my brother and John said I was overreacting and to let him in. Following a row between me and John, and my brother insisting he'd be fine as he'd met Jake before, I gave in and agreed to let Jake in with his muzzle on. I gave my brother some treats for Jake, and let him in. Big mistake - he went to my brother to get the treats, but then seemed overcome by fear and went viciously for him. He didn't do any damage because he had his muzzle on, but it sure as hell terrified the lot of us.

Now I'll admit that hearing us argue certainly hadn't helped the situation, but nonetheless, I just knew that Jake wasn't happy. After that incident John did at long last start listening to me a little, and things settled again.

Then in September 2011 we lost our dalmation, Heidi, and Jake became subdued and somewhat lethargic. He still went on all his walks but didn't have anywhere near as much energy, and there were times when he felt cool to the touch and his ears looked paler. Was this grief or was he ill? - obviously we didn't know, so we took him to the vets, but as our usual vet had emigrated we saw the Head Vet instead.

He said he had a slight water infection, and gave him antibiotics. He felt sure the rest was down to the phenobarb, as such a high dose could have serious side effects, and besides weird and aggressive behaviour, was not epilepsy and he reduced his dose. As for the aggression, he suggested we see a behaviourist. It's difficult to explain how he was with us, but we were not happy with the way he spoke down to us, and made us feel. But he was the head vet after all, so we had to accept it, and in fairness, we can't afford to go elsewhere.

Two weeks later this happened:

Joanne (John's daughter) paid us her usual daily visit. Jake got all excited when he saw her and she let him in.

They were playing as normal. They'd been playing for a few minutes and Joanne tossed the ball to Jake, but he didn't catch it and made no attempt to pick it up, so Joanne picked it up, and tossed it to him again, but instead of going for the ball - he attacked Joanne - a full on ferocious attack.

Just like with Naomi (John's granddaughter) Jake went for the same area, that is the front of her thigh/groin area, where it was difficult to get a really good hold, because his weight pushed her away from him, so luckily she escaped with severe bruising and scratches - but it certainly wasn't for the lack of trying on Jakes part.

Obvioulsy we all discussed it afterwards, to try and get clear in our heads what had actually happened. We discovered that neither me nor John had actually got Jake off Joanne - even though, at the time, we both thought the other had - so he must have released on his own accord. Difficult to say exactly how long the attack went on for, but we reckon no more than 10 - 15 seconds.

My first thought was that Jake had got to go. We had been unbelievably lucky on at least two occassions. No matter no much we loved Jake we could not risk this happening again. Jake is big dog and very powerful. If it had been Joanne's face or arms for instance, it just didn't bear thinking about.

John on the other hand refused to even consider that option, and insisted everything would be fine as long as Jake had no contact in future with any visitors. Despite all reasoned and emotional arguments from both me and Joanne, he wouldn't consider it, because he couldn't face it.

I knew I was fighting a losing battle, and so I convinced myself that it was because the vet had reduced the dose of the phonebarb. It may be the truth anyway. The dose was put back to the original amount following the attack and we are now seeing another vet at the practice who we are happy with.

For the next few months Jake was pretty good. He's a lovely dog, very well behaved, lovable and playful, and has a lovely personality. He tends to go through phases of being super happy for a few days, and we have no worries at all, but that is normally followed by a couple of days when he is very subdued, appears frightened of us and keeps away from us. When he's like this I don't approach him, I leave him alone and advise John to do the same - sometimes he listens - most of the time, he doesn't.

Then a few weeks ago, John took Jake for his walk and when they came back Jake was wet and muddy, so I went to dry him off as usual. He normally loves being pampered but as I dried him, I felt that he wasn't comfortable so I stopped and moved away from him, but he followed me and rubbed his head against my leg for a love. I put my hand on his neck and gave him a love, but a millisecond before I actually heard it I felt the growl in his throat , so I turned slightly so that my back was towards him, kept my hand on his neck until I got him out of the room and shut the door as quick as I could.

This frightened both me and John, but still he refuses to consider having him put to sleep.

Now, after doing more research I am also going to send Jakes blood sample to Dr. Jean Dodds in the vain hope that he also has an underlying thyroid problem.

Quite honestly I'm at the end of my tether. I look at it like this: If Jake really does have epilepsy, he has no control over his behaviour. In which case he is just as likely to attack us as anyone else - and I do not want my face ripped off or my bones crushed. I feel like we're playing Russian roulette.

John looks at it like this: Jake loves us and he won't hurt us, and I agree he wouldn't deliberately hurt us, but we never thought he'd hurt anyone else either, and besides Jake isn't in control of his own actions.

Don't get me wrong I don't like the idea of having Jake put to sleep, I really love him, but my first great grandson is due any day now, and my family can't / don't visit like they used to, because they know it causes us problems with Jake.

Now you're probably wondering why I've posted on here, because it's not a training problem, and you can't offer me a solution to our problems, and that's true - but I'd really appreciate your honest opinions on another option we've considered, which might just be a reasonably satisfactory solution all round - or insanity - or cruelty, depending on your opinion.

Jake wears a halter for walking, and it restricts how much he can open his mouth. He can still open his mouth wide enough to catch a ball - but certainly not fully. We have thought that if his canine teeth were removed and he wore his halter all day, it would restrict the chance of any serious damage, without being too restricting for Jake on a daily basis.

This is not something I really want to do, but I can't carry on living like we are.

Thanks a lot

Sue
jacksdad
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by jacksdad »

wow. you really do sound like you need some support. And while I can understand why you may feel embarrassed to post this, I can't really see a reason to feel that way in reality...for what its worth :wink: and I am glad you choose to come back to us for advice and support.

The thing that jumps out at me is it really feels like there is more going on here than just a "simple" case of fearful dog. I would very interested in what Nettle or Emmabeth have to say/think as well, but this is feeling like more like there is something medical going on. Possibly even more than a "simple" case of epilepsy.

how did your vet at the time come to the conclusion that epilepsy was in play here? I am curious about that.

I think your instincts are spot on in terms of keeping Jake and other people separated. You are also doing really well listening to Jake to keep your self safe. so do give your self credit.
wvvdiup1
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by wvvdiup1 »

You said you've just sent an example of Jake's blood to Dr. Jean Dodds, right? Wait and see what the results are because, if Jake has a thyroid disorder/disease, that MAY be the problem, however, your vet will prescribe medication(s) for this, then see how this will work with Jake. There are no guarantees this will work.

On top of Jake's epilepsy, he may have other neurological problems or damages as well. From what you've described in your post about Jake, he sounds like a "ticking time bomb", meaning he may be happy and good one time, then the next time, he's vicious and attacks people, including you and your family. Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot a vet or a behaviorist may be able to do in these cases.

From my experiences of having three dogs who did what you've described your dog, Jake, is doing, including having epilepsy, my vet and behaviorist at the time told me I had to put my dogs asleep, because there isn't really anything either one of them could do. However, that was at least ten years ago, many important discoveries and new technology have come out that may help, even though these discoveries and technology are still in their infancy, therefore, needing more research and studies, they may help shed a light to Jake's problems and behaviors. You may wish to consult other experts in these fields or speak to other veterinarians and animal behaviorists about these issues. Even if you don't get the answers or help with Jake's behavior and health issues, at least you've tried to find the help you needed or wanted to help Jake.
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emmabeth
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by emmabeth »

You are doing the right thing keeping him separated from other people.

I honestly don't think you will find a vet who would remove his canine teeth for these reasons - however I might be wrong so by all means, discuss it - but - I agree with Jacksdad, that this behaviour is more likely down to a health problem/illness than it is a behavioural issue - removing his ability to seriously hurt someone is not going to deal with whatever is causing the issue.

He really couldnt wear a headcollar all day though, theres a danger he'd get it caught on something or he'd pull it off, in any case though it may limit how far he can open his mouth a little, it won't make much difference if he REALLY goes for someone.

And, with the best will in the world, even without his canines, Jake could seriously hurt someone.

I would hang fire until you get the results from Jean Dodds - keep him completely separate from other people, including family. Honestly if John won't entertain that and plays silly buggers again, then really, to keep people safe you need to have Jake PTS. So either John takes this properly seriously (and I know in the past he hasn't quite taken it so seriously as you have) or Jake goes to the Rainbow Bridge.

IF this is any sort of a health problem then Jake is likely not in any way in control of his actions and the fact he hasn't injured either you or John yet is luck/the fact you know him better than anyone else and not through any desire Jake has not to hurt you.

Even if it is a behavioural problem, there are STILL things that could cause him to lash out without really realising who he has gotten hold of.

I think you have to look at things this way. You have given Jake a chance very very few people would have given him. You have tried a lot of things and the time Jake has had with you has been on the whole, happy. IF you were to have him PTS now, as far as HE is concerned it would be no different to if you decided to knock him out to have his teeth removed or to be neutered.. except of course he won't wake up. But he won't know that.

Of course you and John would be absolutely gutted, but the reality is, Jake for whatever reason IS a liability, with the best will in the world YOU have tried extremely hard with him and he has still hurt people and is still a risk to people. On top of that its very likely there is something causing him discomfort/confusion/anxiety that you can do nothing about. If Jean Dodds tests come back not s howing anything, I think having him PTS is the kindest and fairest option for him as well as for you.

I know its awful but if it weren't for you, Jake would have likely seriously injured someone and then spent his days locked outside in all weathers, never walked, or put down straight away. Because of you he has had every chance and a lot of love and affection and good times. Even if you do have to have him PTS, Jake is STILL a very lucky dog to have found owners like you!
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Ari_RR
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by Ari_RR »

jakesmom wrote: ... I can't carry on living like we are.
Sue,
My honest 2 cents - we need to keep the right perspective on things, and put ourselves first on the priority list.
Jake, although unintentionally, is a high risk part of your life. Dealing with high risk elements comes at a price, and takes toll on our health, relationships, finances, and other aspects.
In some cases - we have no choice (sick kids, for example) - no matter what sacrifices we have to make, we keep doing all we can to help them along.

I think this is not that kind of situation. I know that when we think of having a dog PTS, we think of all the good times we had together, the love he's given us, walks we've had, games we've played, training sessions, sharing a sofa...and this kind of thoughts is heartbreaking.
But in your case, I would be thinking of what you or John will do if Jake attacks the other one or his daughter, or anyone else for that matter. Hospital visits, ICU, reconstructive surgery, wishing you could go back in time and change things.. And those thoughts are much worse.

You've been dealt a tough hand, but you need to deal with this situation having yourselves, your lives, your happiness first. I would suggest considering having Jake PTS, going through the grieving process, with John and his daughter, perhaps having regrets, but then realizing that you still have each other and moving on with your lives.

Having Jake wearing a muzzle or similar device 24x7, removing his teeth, having him locked in a room with no access to outside world.... not the solutions i would go with, why prolong everyone's suffering?
If I were in a similar situation, I would fight the battle to improve the quality of life (my dog's and my family's), if this was a realistic possibility. But if the best we can hope for is for things not to get much worse, then perhaps letting the dog go is the most humane and decent decision one can make, althouh a very painful and difficult one.

Good luck. Wishing you strength... Don't temp fate for too long, it seems that you've been lucky a few times, and our luck runs out sooner or later. If you keep Jake, please take every precaution when handling him.
jakesmom
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by jakesmom »

Thank you all so much. It' makes me feel so much better, just to talk about it.
I just wish John would listen to you - or me for that matter.

Jacksdad, I shouldn't have used the word epilepsy, I should have said seizures.

It was Nettle who suggested it may be epilepsy, when I came on here for help originally. It's not just the unprovoked aggression, he also has what I can only describe as hallucinations and OCD with chasing lights and shadows.

I described Jake's behaviour to the vet, asked if it could be fits, and quite honestly she didn't know, and prescribed phenobarbital to see it would help. It did.

I've done as much research as I can. It's not the grand-mal epilepsy your Jack suffers from (I think I'm correct on that). It's complex partial seizures or psychomotor seizures. It's notoriously hard to test for. Mainly it's diagnosed by the history of the dog, and from what the owner reports.

Wvv, Grief, You went through this three times. I'm so sorry. What breed of dogs were they ?

I'll just hang on and wait until we can sort it with Jean Dodds, assuming the vet will do the blood sample of course. We use the PDSA, so it's not quite the same as using a private vet.
jakesmom
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by jakesmom »

I've just read you post Ari, and I agree if everything you say. Why can't my OH. :? :?

Jake has a really good quality of life, the only restriction - he is not allowed to be with visitors. He still gets loads of walks, play, love etc..

On the other hand our quality of life has gone downhill. GRRRRR - I need to rant.
Ari_RR wrote:But in your case, I would be thinking of what you or John will do if Jake attacks the other one or his daughter, or anyone else for that matter. Hospital visits, ICU, reconstructive surgery, wishing you could go back in time and change things.. And those thoughts are much worse.
Don't worry about that. Jake is allowed near no-one - only me and John.

Sue
JudyN
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by JudyN »

Can I just add that it doesn't matter how much Jake loves you and OH, he is still likely to bite either of you if he has one of his 'moments'. This would even be the case if the problem is behavioural, rather than medical.

Fingers crossed that the thyroid test will show that there is something fixable.
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Nettle
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by Nettle »

First of all, the biggest biggest )))))))))))))))HUG(((((((((((((((((

Thank you for coming to us for support - that's one of the things we do.

Removing teeth won't lessen the risk of a big strong dog with powerful jaws doing severe damage when he bites - it'll just be different damage - especially if his mouth hurts when he bites.

He is not in control of himself at these times, so it's a fallacy to think he won't hurt - someone, anyone - because he loves you. There is love and there is fear - you can't feel both together. Bites from a dog that has lost its self-control hurt just as much as bites from a dog that hates the person it is biting. You know this: I'm just adding it for our passing readers who do not post but may be enduring similar issues.

I'm in agreement with what the others have said. This can be managed, but if OH and son are going to go on and on and bloody on until you give in, then - eventually - as has been said, you will run out of luck and I don't have to say what happens next because you have visited it in your mind over and over. It can only be managed with the whole household on board.

You took on a badly damaged dog, have turned yourself inside out to make his life good, and made him the best dog he can possibly be, given all his issues. You have nothing for which to repraoch yourself.

But you are riding for a fall with the family attitude, with the limited money available to find vet care (you need the best, not a charity vet) and pending the results from Jean Dodds, do not feel you have failed if you decide to PTS. This is no failure at all, but a kindness to your dog, who would go to sleep in your arms rather than being siezed by the police and held in kennels somewhere.

But let's see what JD says first.
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jakesmom
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by jakesmom »

Thank you for your good wishes Judy.

And a very special thank you to Nettle and Emmabeth,

You have both been really helpful and supportive from the start, as was Mattie - even though you probably don't even remember - you help so many people everyday.

Sue xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jacksdad
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by jacksdad »

jakesmom wrote:Jacksdad, I shouldn't have used the word epilepsy, I should have said seizures.
ah. that makes more sense. I was having a hard time tying in epilepsy with the other issues your describe as being related.

when I first read your post almost immediately this story came to mind. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2180 ignore the last post in the thread, while well meaning it's completely inappropriate to both the story about clay and Jake. I share it with you in the hopes it helps really reinforce that you haven't failed Jake no matter what happens.

As already stated and I just want to echo...you really have gone above and beyond what most people would do. Don't sell your self short on that no matter what happens.

I really do hope Jean is able to give you some hope, but again if that is not to be do NOT sell your self short on what you have accomplished, and what you have tried to do for Jake.
wvvdiup1
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Jakesmom, I don't think I could add any more to this than what everyone else have said, so I'm going to give you a big hug:

))))))))))))))HUG((((((((((((((((((

I think what Nettle or whoever said that in this case that should you put Jake to sleep, it would be better to have him go to sleep than some kennel the authorities put him, should he bite someone else, a liability neither one of you can afford.

You asked me, "Wvv, Grief, You went through this three times. I'm so sorry. What breed of dogs were they ?" One was a GSD, one was a mix lab, and the other was a "Heinz 57". They were dogs my late father and I rescued from abusive homes in which they were beaten, especially in the head, and we've tried to rehabilitate them, but they were so far damaged that neither of the vets or the behaviorists we took them to could do anything for them, so we had to put them asleep before they could bite anyone. :(

We tried to do everything we could for them, just like you're trying to do for Jake. The thing is, you have to do the best thing for Jake and the best thing for your family, especially when you have children and grandchildren around, because you don't want them scarred for life and have fear of dogs either.
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Flyby
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by Flyby »

If there is a broad consensus that Jake is beyond help, it still leaves Jakesmom with the difficult job of getting the correct thing done without destroying the family ties too. It's never an easy decision to make no matter how convinced you are it is the right decision.

I agree, its best to await the blood test to be sure it's not something you can remedy, but if it's not, then you know what position you're going to be in.

I would discuss it with your vet, chapter and verse, in private. Tell him the whole story, the attacks, the unpredictability, and the family issues which obstruct you doing what you (and most of us here) agree is the best course of action. If your vet is happy to take on the responsibility to say Jake is indeed a dangerous accident waiting to happen, (and he clearly is so why wouldn't he?) it makes it easier to abdicate your part in reaching that decision onto the vet. Let your other half put forward his arguments to convince the vet that Jake should not be PTS. And if that still doesn't work, having a professional vet as a witness of your dogs potential to be dangerous means the liability if Jake ever does attack somebody is squarely on your other half, and the victim of any such attack already has an expert witness for the prosecution. Your vet may also recommend or perhaps insist the dog is heavily insured against such an attack happening, and registered as a risk with the authorities, thus making him too expensive to keep.

These aren't pleasant things to do or discuss, but I think you need help to change the conditions you're currently living under. I hope and believe people like the vet will understand, and will try to help you, but you might need to be a little clever to bring about the right circumstances where they can physically intervene and act to help you.
jakesmom
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by jakesmom »

You've given me some good suggestions there Flyby - thank you.

We are definately going with the blood tests first, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed we can find a solution to Jake's problems. He is such a lovely dog 99% of the time.

At least I know he's no danger to anyone else, only me and John. Even John isn't irresponsible enough to allow him anywhere near anyone else - apart from the vet of course, but then he's muzzled - just in case. It's really sad, because even the vet thinks Jake's lovely - and that's the problem - he is.

John just cant' stop his heart ruling his head. He knows Jake can be unpredictable so protects everyone else - just not me or himself. He makes me feel stupid because I'm nervous of him at times.

To tell the truth I just wish he's got no teeth. Jake that is - not John. :lol: :lol:
dog2
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Re: Could do with some honest opinions

Post by dog2 »

i agree with wvvdiup that its better to have jake pts yourself with you with him stroking him talking to him before he does something awful which will only add onto the sadness than have to take him to be pts knowing he has just done something irreversable.but hopefully the bloods will come back with something that can be sorted.bless him jake cant be happy such a shame when he has given you and you have given him so much over the years.dont know you but going to send you and jake((((((((big hugs))))))))anywayxxx
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