Could do with some honest opinions

[Horace's Mum]

I have very little to add to what anyone else has said, it is a horrendous situation to be in but sometimes you just have to keep yourself safe. For me life with a halti/muzzle and no teeth would be far worse than quietly being "let go" at a time of your choosing having had a lovely day of all my favourite things and people around me.

Just a different slant, I have known several people with seizure disorders, and some of them are severe to the point of those people struggling to remember other people, how to read, how to speak properly, how to carry out day to day tasks. I know how terrifying these people find life at times, even those times when the seizures are not active but the damage has been done, I can only imagine how scary it must be for a dog in possibly a similar situation who cannot understand the words that can reassure him. In taking on responsibility for our animals sadly we also have to take responsibility for the downs as well as the highs, and I think John may benefit from talking that through with someone who can help him understand where best interests lie, and maybe help him think about how Jake might feel when he is having a seizure or just before/after.

I know what it's like to live with an unpredictably aggressive dog, but it is a million times harder if you are fairly sure there will be no end point. I really feel for you, my heart is going out to you for all you are struggling with, and I think you know what you want to do and what is best for you, but it is so hard when there are others involved.

Fingers crossed for the blood test results, there is hope yet, but please, please don't beat yourself up if you decide that enough is enough. Dogs have been pts for much much less, and if anything ever did happen then pts would be in a much less friendly environment than your arms, and you are at high risk of a court case as well. The only way you can almost guarantee that everyone else is safe is for him never to leave your house - you cannot control other people and if you take him for walks then you will meet other people at some point. I know only too well how many idiots will still walk up to a muzzled dog and touch it even when you tell them not to and hide the dog behind you.

Please keep posting, you and Jake will be in my thoughts, and as a group this forum can be one of the most supportive and non-judgemental places you can be.

Do you know when you might hear back from JD?

[Sarah83]

Just a different slant, I have known several people with seizure disorders, and some of them are severe to the point of those people struggling to remember other people, how to read, how to speak properly, how to carry out day to day tasks.

Medication to control seizures can cause this too at times.

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said I'm afraid. Hugs to you and whatever you decide to do I wish you all the best.

[Horace's Mum]

Yes, absolutely it can, but Jake is on medication so at this point it doesn't matter whether the problems are caused by the seizures which he cannot live with or the meds which he cannot live without - the fear still stands whatever the cause. My point is that we have no way of knowing what Jake is feeling when he has his epsidoes of "aggression" but it is very scary for people who have language, how scary must it be for a dog who has even less understanding of what is going on.

[jacksdad]

Horace's Mum...that is something I did not know about seizures. interesting. defiantly something to think about.

while I can't say for 100% that Jack's issues are all seizure/medication related. I do have zero doubt some things he/I struggle with are..yet at the same time I unfortunately also have zero idea what a non medicated Jack is like. he was still in his semi shutdown state from coming to a new home when we had to place him on medication to try and control his seizures.

while it played out differently than is possibly going to for Jake, last year I reached a point I actually started wondering IF I needed to think about putting Jack to sleep due to his seizures and the affects of the medication. The vets we were working with were basically refusing to consider that he was suffering the side affects of the medication because his blood work put the medication levels well, well within safe range for most of the year. he did briefly cross over into the to high range and so the side affects were very acute briefly. but over all he was in the safe range by a huge "safe" margin, yet was still suffering the side affects. we did manage to control his seizures for several months last year, but the cost was NOT worth it.

I basically had 3 options. 1. Find a new vet that would listen to my concerns and investigate them verse just "oh his blood work says he is ok" despite me telling them he was displaying many of the signs of the side affects. 2. if I couldn't find a new vet, figure out how to tapper him off his meds my self (got really close to figuring this one out and starting this). 3. put an other wise healthy dog to sleep because the cure to date was worse than the disease leaving a really poor quality of life.

like others, I hope the blood work gives you something to work with. But if not, don't down play the quality of life factor or the keep everyone safe factor, for Jake or your self.

[wvvdiup1]

Horace's Mum wrote: Just a different slant, I have known several people with seizure disorders, and some of them are severe to the point of those people struggling to remember other people, how to read, how to speak properly, how to carry out day to day tasks. I know how terrifying these people find life at times, even those times when the seizures are not active but the damage has been done, I can only imagine how scary it must be for a dog in possibly a similar situation who cannot understand the words that can reassure him. In taking on responsibility for our animals sadly we also have to take responsibility for the downs as well as the highs, and I think John may benefit from talking that through with someone who can help him understand where best interests lie, and maybe help him think about how Jake might feel when he is having a seizure or just before/after.

Most certainly something to think about seizures in both humans and dogs (and other animals, of course). What you've said HM just reminded me of something my brother, who has had a lot of seizures, told me something when the three dogs we've had had seizures. He told me that during one of his epileptic seizures, he didn't have the cognitive ability to understand or remember what people are saying or doing, who they are only when he temporary episodes of being able to see or feel, but otherwise, blackness and no control of his body. I could only imagine what a dog feels afterwards: fear. Fear of the unknown of what has happened to it, fear of losing control. Yes, something most certainly to think about.

[jakesmom]

Just a different slant, I have known several people with seizure disorders, and some of them are severe to the point of those people struggling to remember other people, how to read, how to speak properly, how to carry out day to day tasks. I know how terrifying these people find life at times, even those times when the seizures are not active but the damage has been done, I can only imagine how scary it must be for a dog in possibly a similar situation who cannot understand the words that can reassure him.

I must admit, I've been thinking this myself, and I think it's finally getting through to John.

A couple of things in the last few days, are highlighting the fact that he's confused.

1. A few days ago, I was vacumning and Jake was in the way, so I asked him to move to the other end of the room, which he normally does straight away, but he just looked at him, so I told him 'up' which he did and I went to the other end of the room and he followed me - I pointed to where I wanted him to lie, but instead of lying down when I asked him to, he wondered back to where he had been, looking really confused. It soon became apparent to both of us that poor Jake just couldn't understand what we wanted of him - we ended up vacumming around him.

2. We have a fairly big mirror in our hallway, and full height, full width, mirror wardrobes in the bedroom. Jake as never bothered about them, and he's seen them 1000's of times. But today he really growled at himself in the hall mirror - it seemed really odd.

As for Jean Dodd, the PDSA look after Jake's health, and I've been in touch with them. The receptionist checked with one of the vets and she said they don't think they will do the bloods - we would have to go to a private vet, but she made us an appointment to discuss it on Thursday. We've contacted a private vet, and they will do it with the approval of the PDSA. So wish us luck that the PDSA will do it, because Jake's used to them now, and the vet likes him. Not sure how he'll be with a new vet and new building etc.

Sue

[jakesmom]

last year I reached a point I actually started wondering IF I needed to think about putting Jack to sleep due to his seizures and the affects of the medication. The vets we were working with were basically refusing to consider that he was suffering the side affects of the medication because his blood work put the medication levels well, well within safe range for most of the year. he did briefly cross over into the to high range and so the side affects were very acute briefly. but over all he was in the safe range by a huge "safe" margin, yet was still suffering the side affects. we did manage to control his seizures for several months last year, but the cost was NOT worth it.

Jacksdad,

I'm sorry, poor Jack. Sometimes we do have to wonder if we're doing the right thing.

We find we have the same problems with our vet - but admittedly Jake's problems are more unusual, and something they would not come across often, and if they do, the majority of dogs would just be pts.

I assume you've probably seen this site - it's full of info - page down to bottom for excellent links.

http://www.gsdhelp.info/neuro/epilepsyOURS.html#meds

You know Jacksdad, I'll well frustrated, I found yesterday a section saying that the vet should not rely solely on the levels, but also on the side effects the dog is showing. Can't find it now. Has he had the urine bile test done ?

And have you seen this - I thought I had read virtually everything - then I found this.
http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Ocularcompression.html

Sue

[jacksdad]

I assume you've probably seen this site - it's full of info - page down to bottom for excellent links.

http://www.gsdhelp.info/neuro/epilepsyOURS.html#meds

You know Jacksdad, I'll well frustrated, I found yesterday a section saying that the vet should not rely solely on the levels, but also on the side effects the dog is showing. Can't find it now. Has he had the urine bile test done ?

And have you seen this - I thought I had read virtually everything - then I found this.
http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Ocularcompression.html

I haven't see the first site, so thank you. I am always looking for more info about epilepsy and treatment. I have seen the second site. I have tried the ocular compression on my vets suggestion...I really didn't see any effect. There is also a suggestion that an ice pack applied to a specific part of the back would help. a whole write by some vets about this, I actually found a copy of the issue of the journal it was in. both seemed to work if the seizure wasn't that "intense", but honestly I could not say it was truly working and not me just hoping it was. But if the seizure was pretty intense, which most of his are, there is NO doubt that both ocular compression or the ice do not do anything for Jack. either I was doing them wrong OR they just have no effect for Jack. both are real possibilities.

fortunately things have turned around and he is doing really well. we are 1 month and counting between known seizures (have no way to know if he has one while i am at work) and 3 months and "change" since I have seen any side affects of the medication.

We have not done a bile test yet, my vet and I are talking about it though. Jack is only on a 16 mg tablet of phenobarbital and his blood work has him just over the line barely into therapeutic range. But he has been on it for going on 3 years now. But since we can't increase the dose without side affects we have added in Kepra. So he is currently on 3 meds, but if he responds well to Kepra, and so far he seems to be, it is our hope to use sodium bromide (verse potassium bromide. he seemed to be sensitive to the potassium bromide) and kepra and drop the phenobarbital at the earliest opportunity.

"fun stuff" right?

I wish you all the best with Jake, and hope you have good vet support. a vet willing to listen and research and help find answers is worth their fee.

[jakesmom]

Yes "fun stuff" Jacksdad but you have to admit it widens our education.

Great that things are settling a little, and good luck with the new meds.

Sue

[jakesmom]

The only way you can almost guarantee that everyone else is safe is for him never to leave your house - you cannot control other people and if you take him for walks then you will meet other people at some point. I know only too well how many idiots will still walk up to a muzzled dog and touch it even when you tell them not to and hide the dog behind you.

Jake's very lucky as far as walks go. We have two really good areas where we can walk him. There are other people about sometimes, but it's such a big area with open views, we can easily avoid them.

[wvvdiup1]

Jakesmom, someone on one of your forums you've just joined posted two good links regarding epilepsy in dogs, and for the benefit for all of you, the links are:

Canine Epilepsy Resource
http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/index.html

Canine Epilepsy Network
http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/

Jakesmom, if you haven't checked these sites out, I would recommend that you do as soon as you can; there seems to be a lot of information in both of these sites, and Dr. Dodd and others have some articles there posted as well.

From what you've described here and on that other forum, it doesn't sound like Sudden Onset Aggression/Rage (link: http://www.btneuro.org/?page_id=24. However, the other link about Thyroiditis (link: http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-BEHV-THYROID.HTM, also an article by Dr. Dodd, sounds quite interesting, however, you can't do anything until the blood work is tested and your veterinarian tells you Jake has thyroid problems.

Also, someone in this other forum mentioned the possibility of a light (reflecting light from an object in which the light source is either the sun, flashlight or torch, etc.) that dogs with OCD chase could be the "trigger" of these seizures. The thing is, no one knows exactly what triggers an epileptic seizure, however, this, the reflecting light or light source itself theory may be possible, but no one knows for sure what triggers epileptic seizures in dogs or humans.

I think I have more work for me to do on this subject...

[jakesmom]

Also, someone in this other forum mentioned the possibility of a light (reflecting light from an object in which the light source is either the sun, flashlight or torch, etc.) that dogs with OCD chase could be the "trigger" of these seizures. The thing is, no one knows exactly what triggers an epileptic seizure, however, this, the reflecting light or light source itself theory may be possible, but no one knows for sure what triggers epileptic seizures in dogs or humans.

I think I have more work for me to do on this subject...

I thought that reflected light theory seemed a reasonable possiblity as well, especially as Jake has OCD with lights, reflections and shadows. I've got a theory about that myself - I'll explain it when I've figured out - just need to do more observation first.

Your last sentence definately applies to me as well.

[wvvdiup1]

jakesmom wrote: wvvdiup1 wrote:
Also, someone in this other forum mentioned the possibility of a light (reflecting light from an object in which the light source is either the sun, flashlight or torch, etc.) that dogs with OCD chase could be the "trigger" of these seizures. The thing is, no one knows exactly what triggers an epileptic seizure, however, this, the reflecting light or light source itself theory may be possible, but no one knows for sure what triggers epileptic seizures in dogs or humans.

I think I have more work for me to do on this subject...


I thought that reflected light theory seemed a reasonable possiblity as well, especially as Jake has OCD with lights, reflections and shadows. I've got a theory about that myself - I'll explain it when I've figured out - just need to do more observation first.

Your last sentence definately applies to me as well.

I would speak to your veterinarian or a behaviorist to see what they say about this possibility with Jake's OCD with lights, reflections, and shadows, and see if this is a possible cause or what else they think may be the cause of his epileptic seizures. If you will, please could you let us know?

[jakesmom]

I would speak to your veterinarian or a behaviorist to see what they say about this possibility with Jake's OCD with lights, reflections, and shadows, and see if this is a possible cause or what else they think may be the cause of his epileptic seizures. If you will, please could you let us know?

The vet thinks the OCD is more than likely the cause.

It's goes to show the damage we can do to our dogs without realising it. I explained when I originally posted last year that Jake lived at a pub, and when the owners first put the disco ball on, Jake went crazy trying to catch the lights chasing around the floor. They thought he really enjoyed it, so they brought a laser light and used it exercise him.

They saw no harm in it, and told us how much he enjoyed it. We have wondered if not having the opportunity to do it now, upset him...... I'll have to ask the vet.