Vent!

[Flyby]

I'm not sure about the Pit Bull prejudice. I don't have experience of them, good or bad. I hate to admit prejudice, but my personal opinion is one of concern.

I may not know Pit Bulls, but I do however know other terriers. I know their latent aggression, their quicksilver tempers, and their absolute determination and iron will. I know when they will listen to you, and I know when they won't. I know there are some instincts you will never train out of them. These are traits the respective breeds have been engineered to possess, and make them fine and useful dogs as pets and working companions. That's absolutely fine in a dog of 10 to 15lbs weight. But I begin to have misgivings about breeding that 'terrier' mentality in a dog which typically weighs in at a dense and powerful 60 to 80lbs while standing 2ft off the ground.

It doesn't matter how many times I hear the positive story, that 'we have Pitbulls, love them to bits and never have any problems'. I believe you, absolutely, I believe you are sincere, and I believe you are good people and have a good heart.

But when I hear one horror story about two Pitbulls tearing something apart, if not tearing each other apart, (and you don't have to go further than this forum to see that prevalence first hand), then I cannot help but reaffirm my own preconception - not some monster of a dog, just the lionheart temperament of a terrier present in an animal which is physically too big to control or restrain by a 'normal' person. I might hear 100 good stories about pitbulls (though I don't), for every single bad one, but that one bad story is all it takes to underscore my instinctive misgivings. I can't help it. Who is to say the 100 good stories might not all be bad stories which just haven't happened yet?

I suspect that probably does mark me as prejudiced against pitbulls, but I certainly don't hate them, nor do I even dislike them, and I certainly don't want to see them erradicated. My prejudice is based upon their relevance to the modern world, and in particular, why in an urban inner-city context so many people want to own such powerful dogs with this latent potential for damaging people and other pets. It puts an awful lot of people and dogs who don't really understand each other in close proximity and exposed to these risks beside the dogs owners. That's not good for anybody, least of all the dogs.

Despite my own misgivings, I am a dog friendly person prepared to respect people who make that decision and decide to own a pitbull, but if you're one of the unlucky ones who runs into problems, then all I ask is that you just don't assume that I'm automatically going to be on your side. You decided to take risks to own a pitbull, and based upon my own judgement, those are risks which I wouldn't have taken myself.

In my ideal world there is plenty room for Pitbulls, but maybe a bit fewer in number to the point they are rare, and kept by breeders and breed enthusiasts who know what they've got and understand their potential, but of course, don't breed them for fighting.

[JudyN]

But when I hear one horror story about two Pitbulls tearing something apart, if not tearing each other apart, (and you don't have to go further than this forum to see that prevalence first hand), then I cannot help but reaffirm my own preconception

So what happens when you hear a story about a golden retriever mauling someone? Because it does happen. Or a daschund for that matter? I believe they score highly on the 'dog most likely to bite' scale. Or, come to that, a lurcher with just a splash of terrier (as very many lurchers do) who can become dangerously aggressive despite being raised positively from a pup? Do you feel the same about them?

Staffies used to be known as nanny dogs because they were so good with children, yet look at the reputation they have.

Sure, some breeds have more potential to do damage because of their size and strength, so should we restrict breeding of any large powerful dog?

Unfortunately, there are those who want a dog to look, and to be, aggressive. Many Staffies in rescues are there because they wouldn't attack even if kicked, burnt with cigarettes....

[Ari_RR]

Well.. My 2 cents.. Back in the days of active socialization and meeting all kinds of people and dogs, we happened to meet quite a few pit bulls, which are for some reason rather popular in our part of the world. Most of the ones we met were soft and playful, non-aggressive, even submissive types, a pleasure to interact with and have around. I must say that most of them were either "teenagers" though, or very young adults. And we have also met a few that were mean as devil himself, really scary characters.

But, I must say that we have the same experience with other breeds, poodles for example.. Most are ok, but some are just nasty, intolerant, bad tempered, short fuse beasts.

The difference, I think, is in the potential damage that a dog can inflict on other dogs and humans. And here I agree with FlyBy - some dogs have a combination or physical power, instincts, and personality that makes them more potentially dangerous. But this is not limited to pit bulls or staffies. Black Russian Terriers, bred initially to guard prisoners, certainly fall into this category, as do Rottweilers, GSDs, Dobermans, and many others.

The issue, in my opinion, is not necessarily in dog's combination of power and personality. Some combinations are clearly more potentially explosive then others.
The issue is in the mismatch of the dog and his owner's abilities to train and control him. Having a large, powerful animal with a bit of temper requires certain skills, or at least ability to acquire those skills. And when humans drop the ball, and either are unable or unwilling to become responsible owners, in control of their animal(s), that's when the risks become high.

So this comes to responsible ownership. It's very easy to say "oh, poor misunderstood pit bulls and staffies, they are really sweethearts, let me go and rescue a couple"... But this is just as ignorant as declaring the entire breed unfit for society.
It is more difficult, but more responsible, to realize the true nature of the breed and ask the question - "will I be able to be a responsible owner of such breed?". In many, many cases this question is not asked before someone gets a pit bull puppy, or (worse) a rescue dog.

Bottom line of my 2 cents. Declaring the breed unfit is silly. Declaring that pit bulls are misunderstood sweety pies, similar in nature to Cotton De Tuleards, is just as silly. The thing to advocate for is Responsible Ownership. Different breeds require different characteristics from their owners. Humans need to looks realistically at their dogs, and at themselves, and make informed and responsible decisions on their ability to match their dogs.

Wew.. That was long.. Thanks

[ClareMarsh]

It strikes me that where we (and by we I mean dog owners generally) have gone wrong is becoming too focussed on looks and insufficiently focussed on behaviour traits. We got all these amazing varieties of dogs breeding them to work for us, so you decided what job needed doing and you got the dog that we bred to do it, dogs needs fulfilled, humans needs fulfilled, job done. Now I think people focus way too heavily on how the dog looks with complete disregard for what that look represents in terms of how the dog will behave and what owning one means when really it should be the other way around. This includes breeding for convenient things like low shedding, people get labradoodles for this reason, I bet many of them don't think about what the personality traits of that dog will mean for them, they are not going to just lie around the house wanting to be cuddled .

We see it all the time on here don't we, "I've got a springer spaniel, I walk it half an hour a day, most days unless I'm busy, its tearing up my house, help!" If someone who really didn't like being active had done their research then a springer would be bottom of the list regardless of how super cute and smiley they are. I love them, I really do and when out a springer would be perfect for me and my other half as we're really active BUT I could not commit to the hours in the day it would need on a consistent basis so despite lots of friends suggesting a Springer was for me I gave it a miss. I ended up with Ted because contrary to popular opinion chis will outwalk a big dog once adult and built up to it (and you can carry them anyway ), I wanted to be able to take a dog everywhere with me (and rightly or wrongly people will accept small dogs where they won't accept large ones) as I travel a lot and ultimately I wanted a companion dog who would be happy to just be with me if I wasn't feeling like doing much (although to be honest when Ted has had to rest I have seen him become more restless ).

As for large, powerful dogs, well as Ari said you need the time, commitment and ability and inclination to acquire the necessary skills as you have a big responsibility when you have a dog that is capable of serious damage (I'm not saying little dogs aren't but realistically a small terrier cannot inflict the damage a large dog could if reacting with the same level of fear/aggression to something). It genuinely frightens me that literally anyone can go get whatever dog they like, I think I have learnt loads through training Ted and am a reasonably good dog owner, probably better than the majority of owners I meet (sorry to sound big headed but from what I see out there ... ) but I am no way competent enough to own a large powerful dog, maybe I never will be. I still have loads to learn and I came into dog ownership with my eyes reasonably wide open but I was still surprised by how little I knew and how much time it took, I don't think a lot of people realise what owning a dog means

I don't actually know where I'm going with this but it is entitled "vent' so I have

[Flyby]

The difference is the lab or dachund haven't been bred for it JudyN. Not just to 'give it' but to be impervious to pain while somebody is trying to fend them off.

[jacksdad]

I have had to save jack literately from the jaws of a pit. Story is floating around this forum somewhere. But yet Jack has also had some very good dog/dog encounters with pits...and a wolf/dog mix of all things.

Over all, I have a MUCH easier time keeping rowdy pits away from jack than I do labs. Pits are breed to really respond to humans, and over all I find they back off much easier when I ask than labs do.

I personally truly believe people's misgivings about pits are rooted the image created in the media. At the risk of sounding like I have started wearing the old tin foil hat, I have really noticed the media is very good at taking a few truly isolated incidents and making it feel like it's happening right outside your front door every day.

When I am out with Jack I don't tend to see other dogs in terms of breeds, I work to see what messages they are giving off. Position of tail, ear, mouth, is it giving a hard stare, is the hair along the back of the neck up, is all the hair long the backbone up..etc. That tells me much more than what breed the dog is. Because the one thing I have learned...you have to take each dog as an individual. The dogs that turned out to be the best ones to say hi to and the ones that didn't aren't always the one's you expected if you just look at the dog in terms of breed/size. The other thing I learned...by taking the "dogs don't' need to say hi just because" approach I also avoid lot of issues.

[jacksdad]

dog at the beach...with shock collar on, wet with salt water....


what could possibly have been going through this person's mind.

[abbyneo]

Just went to the dog park with the girls..Abby and I usually walk around the outside then sit and wait for little sis to get done playing with fiancee. Tonight we saw a lady with a dog who had a shock collar on who I overheard talking about how wonderful it is and recommending it to another owner..also saw a lady who was in her Westie's face yelling at it to sit and stay (with no reward) while she backed up and took pictures of it..just sitting there. Like..who brings their dog to the dog park to make it sit and stay while you take pictures??

[bendog]

Abbyneo, I put Ben in a sit-stay on the field often - once to video for this forum (and to satisfy my own curiosity as to how far away I could get to him) - also, because it does provide nice photos-



And because if Ben is is a sit stay, when called he will come charging towards me, and again - it gives me time to get in position and get some nice photos


Of course I would never yell at him, or ask him to do it with too many distractions, or leave him in a sit too long.

Clare - I think you are spot on about people need to choose a breed to suit their needs. My boyfriend wants a husky I have tried to explain what a bad idea this would be since we do not need a sledge pulling on a regular basis

I have so many things to rant/vent about it's untrue.
Boyfriends friends have just got another (female) puppy, when they already have a 7 month old female Jack Russell that spends most of her day in a cage and isn't trained or walked enough. GRRR

People at the car boot sale yesterday: Loads of dogs with choke chains on, people pushing prams straight at my dogs causing them to have to jump out of the way and trip me and other people up, when they were walking nicely to heel and doing no harm, kids waving food in front of my dogs, trying to grab the dogs tail etc etc.

[abbyneo]

Abbyneo, I put Ben in a sit-stay on the field often - once to video for this forum (and to satisfy my own curiosity as to how far away I could get to him) - also, because it does provide nice photos-

Oh I totally understand this! This park was filled with other dogs and this poor Westie just wanted to go along and play. He kept getting up to walk away and the owner would come back and squish his butt down while getting right in his face telling him to sit. I wanted to go make that lady sit!

[Sarah83]

Now I think people focus way too heavily on how the dog looks with complete disregard for what that look represents in terms of how the dog will behave and what owning one means when really it should be the other way around.

I completely agree. I've seen so many people out here looking for a husky puppy and then a few months later giving it up because they "don't have time" for it or it "doesn't like being left alone". Or just people looking for "a dog, any breed" as though a dog is a dog is a dog and breed characteristics don't matter. I've tried posting and telling people to consider things like how much grooming they're prepared to do and how much exercise they're going to be willing to give each day but have just been told to shut up because I'm not being helpful

I will admit, I am not a big fan of the way Labradors look. But having researched multiple breeds over the years I do know the breed ticks all the boxes for what I want in a dog except for appearance so I saw no reason not to enquire when I saw Spen looking for a new home.

[JudyN]

My neighbour with a slightly nervy GSD told me this morning that she was thinking of muzzling her as she was getting a little snappy with people. But she didn't want to muzzle her when she tied her up outside shops as someone could easily steal her. I pointed out that being tied up outside a shop and having strangers approach her and try to stroke her (she's a gorgeous cuddly teddy bear of a dog) was a pretty sure way of getting her to bite someone, but she said that people shouldn't approach her, so it would be their fault. She did think twice when I said that it could be a young child. I said that really, she'd be better off leaving the dog at home, though I think my neighbour takes her up the shops as part of her walks - and I don't think she gets very much exercise overall.

It just seems such a no-brainer that she should not be putting her dog into a situation where she would have every excuse to bite someone. I do hope she sees sense...

[Fundog]

The other night the family and I were watching a recording of very well-known comedian. The comedian was talking about his dogs, and how he house-trained them by rubbing their nose in the poop, and how they just didn't get it...

[abbyneo]

Today at work my cubicle neighbor (who I normally really like, we get along great) showed me a picture of her daughter and her "kids'" new puppies...2 6 week old (!!!!!!!) pit bull pups, a brother and sister. I had previously told her that 2 puppies was a terrible idea, and I really don't think she has any idea how much work she's in for. The sad part is that I know she won't actually do the work and they'll end up in shelters or rehomed to somewhere. Ugh, it just makes me so mad. She says that her kids will take care of them..I think those are the famous last words of many people. Not to mention at 6 weeks those babies shouldn't even be away from their mother (I believe).

I can't imagine why anyone at my job would want a puppy with all the horror stories I tell about Neo every day..

[rachel540]

I have so many things to rant/vent about it's untrue.

Me too!! Are you ready!

Lets start with the lady living over the road to me, why do you have a german shepherd (the biggest ive ever seen) only to leave him stuck in the house barking, clambering at the front window eating your wooden blinds?!? And then only to take him for a 20minute walk with you barely being able to keep hold of the lead! Im afraid that is the reason pepper and i do an immediate u-turn when we see you coming, i just wish i could get close enough to at least say hello and welcome you to the street but your what appears to be quite aggressive dog just wouldnt be happy about it.

Lets go a few doors down, we have a silly, blonde bimbo that thort a cute little dog would match her outfits/handbag only to find out a dog is alot of responsibility only you have reacted to this by tying the poor tiny thing to the front door handle while he howls and yaps for what seems like all day long. And pepper feels his pain and is quite distressed when she hears it please stop it, im on the verge of reporting you!

And just round the corner we have a lovely but deluded lady with a cute chihuahua called Trevor, no pepper and trevor cant be play pals, peppers head is bigger than trevor, she would squish him! And please dont give me advice on how to train pepper until you can train your dog, this lady recently said she has started smacking trevor every time he barks! How dare she give me advice and poor trevor he barks constantly at everyone and everything!!!

And finally, mum, pepper is just like having a child so you are already a grandma so please stop nagging me -we're not having kids!!

Ahhhh feel so much better now thanks for listening(reading)