Vent!

[lucyandbella]

I did read enough to pickup on the "arrogance" in his responses. But...it is possible that maybe he was caught off guard by the response and just got defensive? is this one incident enough to "write him off" or is there a pattern that has been developing?

Read his latest Facebook posts. Slamming trainers that use operant and classical conditioning. I will tell you that free shaping (me letting Bella figure things out herself while I stay mostly silent and click her) has saved her life or at least given her quality of life. No amount of his idea of "love" (which apparently trainers like kikopup lack to him- and make no mistake I do love Bella) could have done that for Bella. Me getting face to face with her and making a training bubble wouldn't have helped. To suggest those who use shaping are robots and lack love and emotion towards our dogs is insulting. I was just mad, now I'm done. Bella and me have a great relationship, I can almost read Bella's mind now and she picks up on the tiniest of my cues. I am still amazed when she is chasing after a bird and I can call her off and back to me, or when she is startled by a tipped trash can and I can tell her check it out and she is willing to go investigate when a year ago she would have spent the rest of the day in her crate. Yes she still has many issues that we need to continuously and slowly work on. I believe in counter conditioning and free shaping because I have seen what it has done for Bella, and to suggest Bella is lacking because of the way I train and that I lack sincerity when i work with my dogs, or I have no connection with them and vice versa insults me.

And thats not to say I'm emotionless and silent when i train. I have acted like a fool in the park in front of strangers to encourage Lucy to bring the frisbee back to me and not start a game of chase, in this way I'm probably using more of an approach Zak would approve of. But there is also a place for counter conditioning, free shaping, etc. and he shouldn't just write them off as wrong (he said its better than correction training, but its still a bad approach).

...maybe its me getting defensive now though.

[minkee]

made the tiniest sound with my lips and gave a very small movement of my head. Avatar lady came back to heel with a twirl

I could have done with this tonight... Breeze was on his long lead with lodger, 3 other people, 3 other dogs - I walked to the poo bin and bumped into a lady coming up the steps to the field and lo and behold... she had brought her cat along with her. Well brought is a strong word but she had 2 dogs and a cat trotting along after her. Next thing I know Breeze is haring straight at me, past me and the cat runs. I miss stepping on the lead and he chased her across a road at the end of the field.

Thankfully it jumped over a wall and he stopped rather than jumping over after her. Now, maybe - maybe! - his recall would have worked (perhaps wishful thinking) but I've had a stinking cold for a week and my voice has given up the ghost. The louder I try to call the less sound comes out! So my croak failed to achieve anything.

I feel like we're starting all over again from scratch at the moment and it's hard work.

[JudyN]

Minkee, there's not many sighthounds who could be recalled from a cat appearing in an unexpected place, whatever their age, so don't beat yourself up - or Breeze

[minkee]

I'd be happy with people just not bringing their cats to the dog field!

[gwd]

Avatar lady came back to heel with a twirl I have never taught her but which looks smooth. We do this all the time when working. It's no big deal. You don't have to leap around like a giant frog.

everyone has their own style. i tend to be a very, VERY quiet handler. i think it comes from my conformation background. the ideal handler in conformation disappears ......you shouldn't notice that someone is holding the lead. the idea is simply to make the dog look spectacular and you, as the handler are the like an out of focus blurry background.




i find in agility there are differing styles. there are some handlers that keep up non-stop LOUD chatter and name every obstacle. " fluffy, OVER, CLIMB, WEAVE WEAVE WEAVE, OVER, TUNNEL, OVER"

that is NOT me. i give a verbal release and on weave poles i say "GO" because i trained those separately. ........other than that it is 99.00 body language. the direction my feet point, a turn of a shoulder, a hand signal..........with my dogs, they've learned to pay attention to the slight shift of my weight or a subtle direction change. .......i think some of those not stop talky handlers get dogs that start tunning them out......it's all just background static. ........i will occasionally say my dogs name when he's in the tunnel so that he knows when he exits, which way he should look to pick me up.........but my agility runs are, for the most part, very quiet runs.

[gwd]

well, off to have tooth extracted. my back is still very messed up and i can't lean over to put on shoes.......once again, i'm going to have to leave the homestead in my house shoes.

[Erica]

I like that comparison you made with the picture, gwd. I hope the tooth cooperates...I had to have a baby tooth extracted once, so I could have braces put in...the thing was gigantic and took ages and lots of "tricks" to get out. Even then the roots broke off, and the last shard I found of it came out more than three years after the original extraction.

Pip has been very silly about going potty recently...it'll take several trips outside, interspersed with crating, to get her to potty outside. And it will have been 4 or 5 hours since her last pee, so any chance to run around in the puppy room will end in a yellow puddle.

Typing this up though, I wonder if it might be medical? I haven't noticed any other behavior changes and she's always been fuzzy on the whole housebreaking thing...hmm. She has a stronger bladder than Tal, but is completely happy going inside, and has always been that way.

[OnceInAWeil]

well, off to have tooth extracted. my back is still very messed up and i can't lean over to put on shoes.......once again, i'm going to have to leave the homestead in my house shoes.

[gwd]

well, off to have tooth extracted. my back is still very messed up and i can't lean over to put on shoes.......once again, i'm going to have to leave the homestead in my house shoes.

as it turns out, it was a very good thing i went in. ......tooth was very infected.....and i have to go back for a bone graft in about 6 weeks after some healing. then implant.

now i'm rather glad it was tender as it's not good to have that kind of infection going on.......

right now i'm not lovin' life but at least i've started the process......vicodin and smoothies for awhile!

[emmabeth]

So.. yeah y'all were right.

Anyway I have communicated my thoughts with Zak privately (he emailed ME...), and if nothing else I am happy to say I think he is listening to folk more than some of his comments might suggest!

I do hope I am right because in a lot of ways, he has a lot to offer, and the opportunity to do it publicly and to a large audience, which most of us haven't really got, and in many cases wouldn't want (I'll stab myself in the eyes with a fork before Id present a TV show!).

[MPbandmom]

ummmmmm smoothies Enjoy the smoothies GWD. Hope the vicadin takes care of the other problems.

On the vidoes and in the face of the dog discussion. I haven't watched any of the videos posted here, but I have seen a few from the facebook page and I have always thought he would not want to do that with Sirius. I took Sirius to 16 weeks worth of basic obedience lessons at the local pet store and she lunged and snapped at the instructor 4 times during those 16 weeks and only once did the instructor get even semi as close as he does. For her second class graduation picture, she decided to shake Sirius' paw and Sirius took exception to that idea. I don't really remember all of the others, but I think one of them involved the instructor leaning over Sirius. I think I can say with total certainty, that such antics with Sirius would not be tolerated by her and he would probably be happy to learn that she has great bite inhibition.

Sirius will make intense eye contact if she wants something yummy. Sky will also make eye contact if she wants something. Since she generally wants something from everybody she meets, I don't think eye contact from strangers is as much of an issue to her as it is to Sirius. As I am typing this, I am wondering if some of the people she snarks at while out on a trail are making eye contact towards her.

Hugs: Sky will plow between peoples legs and will be a lap dog if given the opportunity. When she was a puppy, my son would take her for walks and at some point in the walk, she would be too tired/stressed out and lie down. He would pick her up much like a baby and she would put her head on one shoulder and wrap her front legs around his neck. He can still pick her up and she will do the same, it is kind of cute, but could also be intrepreted as hanging on for dear life. Sirius generally doesn't like hugs unless she is stressed out. Then she will take hugs from me and I can pick her up and hold her for a short time. (She is too heavy for me to hold her for long.) They are more side hugs though with one arm around her front and the other arm over her back. She does not like hugs from the men in the family and will struggle to get away, curl her lip, or outright snark at them.

[jacksdad]

So.. yeah y'all were right.

Anyway I have communicated my thoughts with Zak privately (he emailed ME...), and if nothing else I am happy to say I think he is listening to folk more than some of his comments might suggest!

I do hope I am right because in a lot of ways, he has a lot to offer, and the opportunity to do it publicly and to a large audience, which most of us haven't really got, and in many cases wouldn't want (I'll stab myself in the eyes with a fork before Id present a TV show!).

I am not posting to his FB because I knew you have a back door to him and would be address things. But if you haven't already, please point out his characterization of operant, classical, learning theory etc isn't helping the "cause" so to speak. I do agree with him that training should be FUN and not a drudgery of a science project. However, his causal dismissal of these tools REEKS of someone who hasn't actually full understand them and the power and hope they bring to some difficult challenges in training. Nor the fact that even if people are going over board with them, the alternative is far worse.

I also think him completely missed the boat (and a valuable teaching moment) with the comments on the picture he posted with the little boy almost nose to nose with the dog. even IF he (zak) is right and the comments were "over thinking" things. WOW...what a HUGH improvement in public perception and concern about "things" in training. "yesterday" people were following the "beatings will continue until behavior improves" method of dog training. Today, they (maybe in some cases overly so) are concerned about safety, stress, is this really the best for this dog.... He really dropped the ball, missed the boat, and handled the whole thing badly.

I watched his laser beam video (as well as the one that the still picture on FB was taken from), he needs to really be a bit more aware of his effect on the dogs with his movements, approach etc. ya, they don't appear to be cowering in fear, flipping out, or traumatized by what he was doing. But that doesn't mean his approach was right/ok/ideal. His approach that he is teaching was clearly unappreciated by the dog. making the job of the customer that much harder.

So for me, the issues does appear to be his approach. the idea of teaching dogs to look at us, in it self not wrong. the idea of eye contact, can be (not always though) a valid/helpful/useful/etc skill. BUT how he is going about it is mildly aversive. and teaching people to put their faces that close to their dogs, particularly a new dog, not only unnecessary, it could someday be a contributing factor to a bite. hope he has good insurance.

Zak jumped the shark on this one, and I think he probably got a bit defensive with the feed back. which I don't think was off base. Might be drifting into wildly assumptive, but he appears to not know the science side all that well and got even more defensive when that was tossed at him.

He isn't CM by a long shot. No one is perfect. Hopefully he will be open to your comments, step back and think, contemplate etc...and grow.

[Sabrina]

right now i'm not lovin' life but at least i've started the process......vicodin and smoothies for awhile!

So glad they got that tooth out so the infection can clear up! I'm sure they told you this, but do be sure not to drink the smoothies (or anything else) through a straw - the sucking action can cause a dry socket, which I've heard is incredibly painful!

Anyway I have communicated my thoughts with Zak privately (he emailed ME...), and if nothing else I am happy to say I think he is listening to folk more than some of his comments might suggest!

So glad to hear this!!!

[gwd]

So.. yeah y'all were right.

Anyway I have communicated my thoughts with Zak privately (he emailed ME...), and if nothing else I am happy to say I think he is listening to folk more than some of his comments might suggest!

I do hope I am right because in a lot of ways, he has a lot to offer, and the opportunity to do it publicly and to a large audience, which most of us haven't really got, and in many cases wouldn't want (I'll stab myself in the eyes with a fork before Id present a TV show!).

ok, i've read the comments now..........sadly it didn't seem to be a discussion. it seemed very much like the same thing you see on a pro-cm site where anyone with a differing point of view was viewed as questioning an idol. .........zak missed an opportunity for discussion. you don't really learn any new perspectives if all you're looking for is butt pats and positive affirmations.

i don't always agree with people on this forum..........i'm not talking about a major disagreement with overall philosophy, but there are times when i think i'd have taken a different approach........and i've said as much. but i've never felt that my opinion was unwelcome even if it differed. i also believe that there is mutual respect

just the other day i had mentioned that i use a chain slip collar for showing in conformation. ......technically i guess that is a collar that is against the basic 'rules' of the forum........however, i didn't get negetive responses because of my admission. i think other posters give me the benefit of the doubt and trust that i'm not stringing the dog up or even giving corrections with a slip collar.

[Nettle]

Many roads to the same destination, gwd, and all of us learn from each of us. Win/win indeed.

Hope you feel better today. I had a lot of root canal work done last year (last year was the Year of the Teeth for me - three broken and then the root canal stuff) and I did find swishing my mouth out with a couple of drops of tea tree oil in a glass of water once a day helped enormously with the infection side of things.