Vent!

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Nettle
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Re: Vent!

Post by Nettle »

Amounts on kibble bags relate to research on farm animals, which of course are required to get as fat as possible in as short a time as possible. This research was then extrapolated for dog food. And of course manufacturers have to cover their backs and recommend too much food because if someone fed the recommended amount and it wasn't enough, they would be in an awkward legal position if the owner decided to sue (instead of just feeding the dog more). Manufacturers rely on taking the decision-making away from the owner, because then they can push the 'scientific this and formulated that' idea, along with telling us that we cannot possibly know enough about nutrition to feed a dog properly. And most people buy into this too.

We have so lost our way from this attitude that when people change to raw, they often don't trust themselves to give the right amount. When we pioneers say "if your dog gets thin give more, if it gets fat give less" they just don't believe it's that simple.

If a dog is overweight, many vet practices sell diet kibble :roll: and I've even been told by a veterinary professional that it is wrong to give less of the normal food - it HAS TO be diet kibble, or the dog won't have balanced nutrition :o
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JudyN
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Re: Vent!

Post by JudyN »

Nettle, I saw you'd replied to my post about kibble in Health, Diet and Exercise but popped down here before reading it. Then I forgot where I was, read your post here, and thought 'That doesn't answer my question at all!' :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
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Nettle
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Re: Vent!

Post by Nettle »

:lol: you're working too hard!
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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rnor1120
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Re: Vent!

Post by rnor1120 »

Nettle wrote:I've even been told by a veterinary professional that it is wrong to give less of the normal food - it HAS TO be diet kibble, or the dog won't have balanced nutrition :o
You will NEVER hear me say that, that's for sure :lol: . Yes, we do have plenty of weight loss diets (there's a brand new one that shows lots and lots of positive results, but that's another conversation), but you can achieve weight loss with any diet so long as you reduce the calorie intake. And actually, when I probe a little further it's usually not a matter of feeding too much kibble, but rather too many treats and table scraps.

It's almost funny how many conversations go like this:

Me: alright, well how much are you feeding him?

Client: not a whole lot, actually, he really only eats <insert seemingly appropriate amount of kibble> per day...

Me: and that's all he eats?

Client: usually, yeah.

Me: what about treats? Or people food?

Client: oh, well he gets three milkbones in the morning before his breakfast because he won't go outside to pee without getting a treat first. He also loves bacon, so my husband give him a piece every day. Then he gets my bread crusts at lunch with a little peanut butter. Then he gets three Greenies dental chews before dinner, and right before bed he gets a jerky treat....

I once had a client who was instructed to substitute her dogs treats with baby carrots. The dog loved baby carrots so much, her owner admitted to giving her a whole 1 lbs bag per day. That's roughly 400 calories... Needless to say, the dog gained several more pounds, and agreed to give our new weight loss diet a shot - she's lost almost 15 lbs :D .
gwd
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Re: Vent!

Post by gwd »

rnor1120 wrote: but you can achieve weight loss with any diet so long as you reduce the calorie intake.
And of course (hope I don't give you bad flashbacks to thermodynamics), there is always the option of keeping the caloric intake the same, and simply upping the amount of calories burned! If they want to keep feeding the crusts with peanut butter at lunch they can always extend the dogs walk!
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rnor1120
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Re: Vent!

Post by rnor1120 »

gwd wrote: If they want to keep feeding the crusts with peanut butter at lunch they can always extend the dogs walk!
GASP, what?!
I have a 50/50 client base . 50% are willing to increase exercise, whether that means increasing walk time, play time, or swim time. The other 50% look at me like I'm crazy when I say that increasing physical activity will help with weight loss and behavioral problems. I always suggest increasing exercise, but ultimately it's my client's job to do it.

I will say that I do have owners who simply will not stop giving their dog ice cream, bacon, etc. I tell them it's fine as long as there's nothing toxic in it and if they stop giving other treats along with it and do another 10 minutes of fetch or walking, etc. I've found that compromising with my clients ultimately leads to higher compliance.

Gosh, if only my clients were as good as you all!
gwd
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Re: Vent!

Post by gwd »

rnor1120 wrote:[GASP, what?!
:lol: I know, we posters have the craziest ideas, right!?!
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DianeLDL
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Re: Vent!

Post by DianeLDL »

Rnor,

I have a question about milk products for dogs. When we got our chihuahua mix, the trainer told us emphatically that dogs cannot digest milk, cheese, ice cream, yoghurt, etc.

Would it be because we have a small dog, as I know people who give ice cream to labs, retrievers, German shepherds?

What do you tell your clients? Probably a good question for our vet, but we won't see her until our return to Albuquerque in November.

And, we have had to cut back on our treats, too. Sandy is a deer chihuahua who was good between 11 and 11.5 pounds, but last weight he was up to 11.8 pounds. He used to get more exercise when OH could run him and take him on more walks. But, now OH has knee and piriformis problems so walking causes pain. Of course, Sandy doesn't realize that daddy can no longer run and tries to run with him. I do my best, walking interspersed with jogging with my cane which makes for an interesting sight.

At least, he is small enough, that we play in the house, throwing a stuffed bone which he then likes to play tug or get us chasing him. I have a length of fleece that i wave in the air and Sandy loves jumping to catch it, lets go and keeps jumping. He gets exercise, I get dizzy, and at least we are in the house. So, there are ways for small dogs to get indoor exercise without owners having to go to great lengths.

I am an RN and a lifetime member of Weight Watchers and as gwd said, it is calories in versus calories burned. It has always been this way. When OH was able to run 20 miles a week on the treadmill after two years, while also watching his diet, he lost 120 pounds! :D

Now, that he is walking 10 miles a week on the treadmill, he really has to watch his intake.
And the same goes for any human, dog, cat, horse, etc.

Yes, Sandy likes peanut butter, but he never gets it as people food. Only a 1/2 teaspoon in a Kong. We will occasionally flavor his kibble with teeny 1/4 tsp of chicken or turkey or ground up training Zuke (3.5 cal/Zuke).

Another thing I have noticed that just like humans, Sandy's appetite gets smaller when it is hot outside. Our biggest problem is getting him to drink enough water. When we travel, he will not drink water although in hot weather we keep it cold in a cooler when we stop on the road, get to the hotel room, the first thing I do is fill up his water bowl which he inhales. But, if he is not exercising and lying around, there have been times when I have had to use a medicine dropper to get water into him. After a few times of that, he usually begins drinking on his own.

Ironically, Sandy has a very sensitive stomach, and we can tell those days when he will not eat any treats. Then, of he eats a couple bits of kibble, he gets into position and we know vomiting is next. After he vomits, he then can eat his food, treats, and is normal again. The vet can't figure out why except on the radiograph shows a very small stomach. Probably one more for the regular size chi.

Anyway, if you could explain why we would be told not to give milk products to our dog, it would be great.
gwd wrote:
rnor1120 wrote:[GASP, what?!
:lol: I know, we posters have the craziest ideas, right!?!
I agree with gwd on this one. :lol: :lol:
But, you see we like to think outside the box.
Diane
Sandy, Chihuahua mix b. 12/20/09
rnor1120
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Re: Vent!

Post by rnor1120 »

DianeLDL wrote:the trainer told us emphatically that dogs cannot digest milk, cheese, ice cream, yoghurt, etc.
My apologies for taking so long to answer you, it's been a crazy work week that's been forced to a grinding halt by a terrible sinus infection.

Anywho, it's not necessarily that they can't digest dairy period, it's that they can't digest it well. After baby puppies stop nursing, their intestines cut back on the enzymes that digest lactose. So essentially, they become lactose intolerant. They can have dairy in small amounts, but give them too much and they get the Hershey squirts, if you know what I'm saying :wink: . It's the same with other mammals. Even wild canids will eat the mammae of their prey, so dairy digestion is possible, but not great.

Now, I always warn about the fat content in cheeses as well, especially with the little breeds as high fat can cause pancreatitis. And that sucks.

I don't want to nit-pick at diets on the internet, but most chihuahuas and toy breeds typically only need 250 calories or so per day. I calorie count with my dogs too, and I think it pays off!
DianeLDL
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Re: Vent!

Post by DianeLDL »

rnor1120 wrote:
DianeLDL wrote:the trainer told us emphatically that dogs cannot digest milk, cheese, ice cream, yoghurt, etc.
My apologies for taking so long to answer you, it's been a crazy work week that's been forced to a grinding halt by a terrible sinus infection.

Anywho, it's not necessarily that they can't digest dairy period, it's that they can't digest it well. After baby puppies stop nursing, their intestines cut back on the enzymes that digest lactose. So essentially, they become lactose intolerant. They can have dairy in small amounts, but give them too much and they get the Hershey squirts, if you know what I'm saying :wink: . It's the same with other mammals. Even wild canids will eat the mammae of their prey, so dairy digestion is possible, but not great.

Now, I always warn about the fat content in cheeses as well, especially with the little breeds as high fat can cause pancreatitis. And that sucks.

I don't want to nit-pick at diets on the internet, but most chihuahuas and toy breeds typically only need 250 calories or so per day. I calorie count with my dogs too, and I think it pays off!
Rnor,

First thank you for your answer. As an RN, it makes sense to me.

Sorry to hear about your sinus problems. I hope you feel better soon.

I had no idea about the fat in cheese and pancreatitis. So, that is a definite no. I can understand the change in the intestines and the lactose intolerance (I also have that problem myself). I find I can eat yoghurt.
So, would nonfat plain yoghurt be good for Sandy or best not to mess with it?

He has a very sensitive stomach. We can tell it is one of those days when he won't even eat a favorite treat. Once he vomits, he is usually fine. But, we haven't figured out what his problem is. His vet did a radiograph a couple of years ago which showed a small stomach. He had developed an intestinal infection, overgrowth of bacteria, just from eating fully cooked pieces of steak for which he needed antibiotics. His only meat now is cooked chicken or turkey.

Although he is a "deer" chihuahua, longer legs, snout and body, his insides seem to be the same as a apple faced toy chihuahua as the vet pointed put on the radiograph.

My husband has always had larger working dogs in farms and ranches and when an MP dog handler with the US Marines, he had a Belgian Malinois which could eat anything from plain hamburgers to ice cream. So, having a small dog is a new experience for him. And since Sandy is my only dog, I have nothing to compare him.

Also. Being an RN, I definitely understand watching calories and exercise. We make sure his treats are included when providing his one meal a day of kibble which is quite a small amount. We had to mix two different brands as he didn't like either one alone, one specific for chihuahuas and one for toy dogs. And, I even bought a smaller bowl for him. It is easier for me to figure out the food, but my husband who is used to larger dogs and big portions, the smaller bowl helps remind him.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I hope you are feeling better soon.
Diane
Sandy, Chihuahua mix b. 12/20/09
rnor1120
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Re: Vent!

Post by rnor1120 »

All in moderation 8) . Little bit of cheese here and there isn't going to cause harm, but I see lotssss of of bacterial overgrowth in little dogs from eating too much meat or cheese. Big dogs too, but probably 60-70% are the little guys.

Plain low fat yogurt would probably benefit Sandy's sensitive tummy because of the probiotics, especially if Sandy has already had issues with bacterial imbalance. I'm going to say with his size, probably like a teaspoon or so a day.
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Nettle
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Re: Vent!

Post by Nettle »

This morning's exercise in Darwin involved a woman pushing a pushchair with a child in the seat, another standing up on the back, and a hard-pulling labrador tied to the pushchair.

Sigh. :?
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ClareMarsh
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Re: Vent!

Post by ClareMarsh »

Nettle wrote:This morning's exercise in Darwin involved a woman pushing a pushchair with a child in the seat, another standing up on the back, and a hard-pulling labrador tied to the pushchair.

Sigh. :?
Maybe the second child standing on the back was to counter balance the lab :shock:

A staffy once pulled over a pushchair it was tied to outside a cafe and started dragging it down the road to follow Ted :lol: I just kept on going because I'd seen the whole thing coming whilst the owner was too busy drinking coffee and chatting to her friends. Thankfully the child wasn't in the chair as the dog continued to follow us with the chair dragging behind and the mother running after the dog :lol:
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Erica
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Re: Vent!

Post by Erica »

Anything that isn't connected to the ground is not suitable for tethering a dog! :lol: Even the tiny ones can get something moving with enough willpower.
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Swanny1790
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Re: Vent!

Post by Swanny1790 »

Maybe she was giving her kids a lesson in dryland dog mushing???
"Once infected with the mushing virus, there is no cure. There is only trail." - Sven Engholm
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