Vent!

[bendog]

I can put my money where my mouth is. If any doubting scientist would like to provide me some (fenced for safety) acres of land with rabbits present, and a medley of dogs of any breed types, from varying backgrounds (the first twenty out of the rescue kennels will do) I will not only demonstrate each dog hunting individually, I guarantee that within less than an hour the whole shebang will be working co-operatively.

There's a phd somewhere in there for you nettle
Contact a university and get on it!

One of the big big problems with science is that it is so hypothesis based. Which sounds crazy, since thats what science is.
You come up with a hypothesis, test it, and then accept or reject it based on the evidence.

But it means that if something appears that doesn't fit in with your hypothesis, you have two options - change your hypothesis (which you might have invested years in) or ignore whatever doesn't fit your theory. Or come up with an alternative explanation to explain it, whilst still supporting your hypothesis. I've seen it time and time again in science, with potentially quite important research. People really do see what they want to see, and find excuses for anything that doesn't fit.

And any results are only as good as your experiment design. And sometimes common sense can fall by the wayside.

For observations to be scientific the behaviour needs to be documented and analysed. An ethology chart for dogs might record how often dogs show certain 'hunting' behaviours eg "air scenting", "sniffing the ground" "chase" "stalk" etc
But many of those can also occur for other reasons eg scavenging for food, or finding a female etc. and you are relying on the observer to correctly identify the behaviour, AND correctly interpret it. And you can only record behaviours you recognise so some subtle things like piloerection might not be noted, particularly when doing time point observations (eg every 5 sec, rather than continuous observation) and sniffing the ground because another dog has weed there, might be grouped together with sniffing the trail of a rabbit on the ethology chart, and so analysed together when they are potentially two seperate behaviours that just look similar.

[jacksdad]

Yep, PhD doesn't always mean they know what they are talking about. I recently read a book by a PhD who at the moment of truth shot him self in the foot. he actually made a more compelling case that neutering solved behavior issues in dogs than his actual hypothesis regarding the future of dog training and behavior work.

[ClareMarsh]

I've taken all sorts out, and they all hunt as soon as they hit scent.

I have a vision of you out hunting with my chis And by that I mean turning up at a shoot with a load of serious gun dog people and then releasing Ted and Ella

Ella did grab hold of a crow by the wing tip the other day, then immediately panicked, let go and ran the other way

[gwd]

I've taken all sorts out, and they all hunt as soon as they hit scent.

I have a vision of you out hunting with my chis

Sadly, most of the sighthounds I work with would think chis would be what was to be hunted.

[JudyN]

Sadly, most of the sighthounds I work with would think chis would be what was to be hunted.

On the other hand, I get very irritated at people who assume that Jasper will think that their little fluffy dog is a rabbit, when in his mind there's no doubt it's a dog. Sure, he might think it's a dog he can jump up and down on and use as a bowling ball so introductions are still made with care

[bendog]

Poppy wasn't entirely sure Ella wasn't a mouse when she met her.....

[gwd]

Sadly, most of the sighthounds I work with would think chis would be what was to be hunted.

On the other hand, I get very irritated at people who assume that Jasper will think that their little fluffy dog is a rabbit, when in his mind there's no doubt it's a dog. Sure, he might think it's a dog he can jump up and down on and use as a bowling ball so introductions are still made with care

I'm not sure what the zoi's think the tiny dogs are..............I mean I'm sure they know they're dogs and all but they alert on them with the same ear movement that the use for prey............ maybe it's a combo of fast movement and small size. Obviously they don't think that a plastic bag on a zip line is a rabbit but they sure chase the hell out of it when lure coursing.

[ClareMarsh]

I'm not sure what the zoi's think the tiny dogs are..............I mean I'm sure they know they're dogs and all but they alert on them with the same ear movement that the use for prey............ maybe it's a combo of fast movement and small size.

I find this quite disturbing. Obviously I wouldn't release the chis into a field of hunting sight hounds any more than I would throw them into a pack of wrestling labs or fighting terriers But it's really not my experience that sighthounds are a problem with my small dogs. In fact sight hounds are a breed that Ted enjoys spending time with (although watching a greeting is quite something. Step 1, establish the other dog does want to greet, step 2, hold still whilst it bum sniffs him, step 3, make his way round to the other end, place a paw on each butt cheek and inhale ).

I will say that as Ella is still a skittish, zoomie puppy she would be more likely to end up in trouble than Ted who is the master of the very still, very exaggerated body language.

[Nettle]

Mine are fine with Very Small Dogs, and get the sniff-fest as you describe but it could be that they are used to meeting all sizes of dog.

[gwd]

Mine are fine with Very Small Dogs, and get the sniff-fest as you describe but it could be that they are used to meeting all sizes of dog.

It's only two of the borzoi's that I work with that give me that, 'I see prey' look around small dogs........... the other ones seem to be fine. The gal that owns the zoi's has three cats and she has to make sure they're in a different room when she lets those two in as neither of them are cat safe either........ the other zoi's and her greyhounds all seem to do fine with the cats. I have noticed that most of the greyhound rescue dogs specifically say NO, on cats....... very few seem to list that cats are 'ok'

[ClareMarsh]

I have noticed that most of the greyhound rescue dogs specifically say NO, on cats....... very few seem to list that cats are 'ok'

I think that might be a bit like most of rescues seem to say a huge majority of their dogs must be an only dog. Now we know all dogs don't get along and it takes more dog knowledge to manage a multi dog home tha n single, and that rescues err on the side of caution I totally understand, but it does cut down your options somewhat. I've also no doubt most greyhounds being ex racers wouldn't automatically be cat safe but I know several that are. I guess many rescues don't have the recourses to ensure the dog becomes cat safe and that the dog is rehomed to a home that can continue to work with the dog. And of course it also depends somewhat on the dog skills of the cat

In fact we were just with the delightful Yami, an ex racer who when his last cat fell ill and died his owner went out and rescued another cat for him as he missed his friend

[JudyN]

A retired greyhound may never have seen a cat or a small fluffy dog and will have learnt from an early age that small fluffy things are for chasing so may well be impossible to retrain. But there are greyhounds & lurchers that live happily with cats and other fluffies. Some rescues do have their 'stunt cats', but they need a confident cat for that role

Jasper still sometimes chases our cat, Monty - but if he catches him (he tries to get himself in between Monty and the stairgate with the cat pophole in) he may just put his jaws gently round him, wag his tail, and whine hopefully, wanting Monty to play. Though I've a feeling Monty still thinks Jasper wants to eat him and he's never succumbed to his charms

[bendog]

It's the movement for Pops (not a sighthound I know)
There seems to be a terrier thing to grab fast things and make them stop!
She can get very quickly overstimulated by dogs running, and will chase them down and tackle them, whether they like it or not. So I have to watch as she will bully and frighten smaller dogs if they run around. I don't 'think' she would try to actually hurt them, but she 100% will try to bring them down like prey.

The greyhound I walk is ok with smaller dogs, but similar to Pops, he will sometimes try to goad and bully little dogs into running away so that he can chase them. And doesn't stop if they are afraid, even if they yelp.

[Sweetie's Human]

Another aggressive large dog off lead this morning. This time, however, I saw it about 30m off when it started barking at us. We turn on our heels and got out of there, but the dog catcher has been called. What is with people not keeping their dogs in? I know everyone has a bad luck event where the dog just gets out, or away from them, but I'm seeing so much of it around here lately.

Rant over.

[CarolineLovesDogs]

I have a bit of a rant (though not too intense) about no free lunch programs, nothing in life is free programs, or whatever you want to call it. If you haven't heard of them before, it basically a kind of training program where you ask your dog to do something for you before doing anything he wants to do, or giving him anything good. If he doesn't comply, he doesn't get what he wanted. It can be a cue as simple as "sit". You are told that before you do anything with your dog, before every positive interaction, you must ask him to do something, let's say you choose "sit".
Your dog wants a belly rub. You tell him "Sit!".
Your dog wants the food bowl down. You tell him "Sit!"
He wants his ear scratched. "Sit!"
He needs to go potty, so he waits at the door. "Sit!".
And on and on and on. Whatever the dog wants, he must work for it.
I find this can be stressful for some dogs, and cause them to not want to interact with their handler (owner) as much. It's all work, it's all training, it's not so much relationship or bonding. I think one of the best way to bond with our dogs, to truly enjoy them and have them enjoy us, is to randomly do things with your dog out of the blue, like take a special walk with him or just go over to him and talk sweetly to him and pet him, or start a game of fetch just for the heck of it. These are the things that form relationships- giving, without asking for anything in return. (Ever heard of random acts of kindness?)
Think about it from your perspective. Let's say you haven't been able to get together with a close friend of yours' recently and you really want to talk to them. You give them a phone call. You're just hoping for a chat, a comfortable time to relax with your friend, but before you can start talking to them, they tell you that the only way they'll stay on the line is if you pick up their laundry from the laundry mat. Then each time you call your friend, he prefaces the conversation by saying "First, do this ____ (fill in the blank). Chances are, you won't feel as close to that friend any more. Instead of talking to you because they want to, it might start to seem as though they are just using you.
So think before you ask your dog to do something so that you'll give them something they want: Does it really matter to you if they do it? If it is meaningless to you, and you are just doing it so you can say you did it, then it's perfectly fine (and in my opinion, often beneficial) to just do what your dog wants without asking him to do something for you. For example: Your dog lays down and rolls over, her eyes and tail wag just begging you for a belly rub. Is it seriously important to you that she sit before this type of interaction? What is the point, really? If there's no meaning or reason, then there's no reason to do it.
Now I am by no means saying that this isn't valuable as a training tool sometimes. I realize that for some things, you do want your dog to, for example, sit while you put on the leash instead of jumping madly around, and that's okay. Sometimes it is necessary for the dog to sit. But in that case, you have a reason; you aren't just asking the dog to sit "because you said so". In fact, that's just what positive reinforcement is about- to an extent. In a training session, we only reward our dog if he does what we want. Also sometimes as the reward we use an "environmental reinforcer" which seems to be similar to what the NILF advocates tend to suggest. HOWEVER, outside of training sessions I prefer to use the "do this, or I won't do that for you" approach sparingly. Of course it is important that you can get your dog to respond to your cue outside of training sessions, but you don't have to ask him to do that behavior every ten seconds.
You CAN reach reliability of your cues without making your dog practice the cue every second of every day. It's kind of like the belief scientists used to have- they would starve the animal so that when it came time to train, the animal was ravenous, but the only way he could eat was to do what they wanted. If he didn't, sorry, no food, you're just gonna get hungrier. Now scientists (and the general public) know that starving the dog is not necessary. Certainly it is better to train, say, a few hours after your dog last ate, or right before another meal so that he is hungry, but there is no need, nor benefit to, going overboard.
Bottom line being: I think that asking your dog to do a cue before you, for example, throw the ball, is a good way to practice the cue in a real life situation, but doing it every time your dog wants something is overkill, it can be stressful and is not very beneficial to your relationship.
I think these programs seem to be (at least by some trainers who recommend them) kind of rooted in the control, being your dog's boss, mindset. You have to control, control, control every interaction, he can't get anything good unless he pleases you.
As always, no offense intended to those who use this program. It is just not my personal favorite for the reasons I detailed above.