Vent!

[CarolineLovesDogs]

Today I have to work with a dog of an exceptionally sensitive breed who has an owner who said he was one of 'thatperson's' biggest fans. It's going to be an uphill task.

Oh dear, good luck! I'm sure that won't be easy!

It wasn't.

'Calm submission' is an oxymoron.

I'm sorry it didn't go well.

[Nettle]

It probably did go well, but it's a hard mindset to get people out of, and I'm not sure how much I actually got through to him and how much he was just humouring me.

[jacksdad]

if you get into IT....learn to Google.....

I swear i spend more time troubleshooting stuff for other IT professionals that should know better. or at least how to Google. of course my management always just takes everyone's word the problem is on our side no matter how many times I show the problem isn't.

[minkee]

It probably did go well, but it's a hard mindset to get people out of, and I'm not sure how much I actually got through to him and how much he was just humouring me.

Do you tend to explain why what they understand is wrong? Or just tell them your way of doing things and hope they work out that it's better on their own?

Same question to all pet professionals that deal with this I really wish I could have explained better to that guy that I met the other day!

[Nettle]

The difficulties I find are that they have read this/seen it on TV therefore it must be true. That they have used force/seen force used in the past and it has 'worked'. That there is something very punishment-oriented in the human psyche, and something very status-oriented and competitive too. This last means that everyone/thing is seen as 'better' or 'worse' than someone/thing else. They can't just 'be' and fit into their own little place in the universe.

And of course animals need to know who is boss!
Rescued animals should be GRATEFUL!

It's very hard for people to realise that their dog doesn't give a rat's fundament about all that. All it wants is to be able to feel safe at the dog/human interface, and to have its needs met.

I am a good 'explainer' and well-known in my small pond, but it is really hard to get the message across to people who, basically, are happy to 'dominate' their dogs. Putting this into question attacks their fundamental belief in their own superiority, so I have to be immensely careful how I phrase it.

And in the end, people stick with whatever makes them feel comfortable, and curiously, most people are quite comfortable with hurting and frightening their dogs, while not at all comfortable with listening to what their dogs are trying to tell them.

Then they wonder why the dog won't recall......

[Anatine]

You phrased that so well Nettle!

OH's mum is a prime example of someone who will physically punish a dog, then it won't recall, so she punishes it further.
Then she wonders why puppy runs off.
She has come out on walks with me and OH, so we could show her how we walk her, as she couldn't figure out why we had no problems with her.
She saw how we used the clicker and marked even small things like checking in. We rewarded her for coming back of her own accord, and jackpotted whenever she came when called (usually the first time of being called unless she's having a good sniff).
We train her to want to be near us, and to want to come back, and OH'a mum had seen how effective it is. But she still won't do the same herself.

I think it's partly down to laziness. She doesn't want to have to keep her attention 100% on the dog all the time like we do. But she did also use to watch a bit of CM, and I think watching that has given her bad habits. But for Quorra it really doesn't work, so why keep using his tehiniques? (Leash corrections etc)
I just don't think she can swallow the her pride and admit that what she has been doing for so long is not the best way of doing things

[Nettle]

This morning I omitted a most important extra, for which I thank Jacksdad.

For a lot of people, it is rewarding to them when they frighten or punish their dogs. Sometimes they are aware of this - sometimes not.

Therefore those of us who train dogs and their people need to offer the people side of things a bigger reward than they already get from punishing their dogs. And we need to give them 'words' to give to the people who tell them they should be punishing their dogs. And we need to find ways of explaining that what makes good TV doesn't necessarily make good dog training, and the books published 30 years ago containing scientific theory from 40, 50, 60 years ago are out of date.

Uphill task doesn't begin to describe it - but as I said to a group of trainers recently: we can only change the world one person at a time.

[jacksdad]

one person at a time seems small and slow...but like interest can add up "quick".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_ ... rd_problem

one person at a time seems slow, but it really is powerful.

[bendog]

Damn right about punishing being inbuilt into people. I struggle not to lash out and hit someone/something when I get annoyed, frustrated, angry

Also, positive training is seen as "permissive", ie dogs allowed to "get away with" behaving badly. Which of course is ok for small/toy/soft dogs, but not for "insert breed here" which need a "FIRM HAND"

My hope would be that my own dogs would prove positive training works, but unfortunately my lot are little sods so kind of lend their argument to the above...

[JudyN]

my lot are little sods so kind of lend their argument to the above...

Nooo, they're not - you have two wonderful easy well-trained boys, one old lady who has skin problems so is understandably grumpy at times, and a very driven, demanding, feisty but awesome (and awesomely trained) Uberdudette. It's just that in combination, coupled with your busy life and your bf, they're challenging

Ask yourself what Poppy would have been like with punishment-based training...

[Nettle]

I agree - you probably have some of the happiest, best-trained terriers in the country.

[minkee]

Thanks for expanding, Nettle. I hope I can find the words next time I run into him because he did seem open to ideas, and clearly wanted what was best for his dog, just had his mindset so far over into 'enemy territory' that it's hard to show him a new perspective.

[bendog]

I agree - you probably have some of the happiest, best-trained terriers in the country.

Thanks.....
But you haven't met them
You guys only really get the edited highlights, it's almost impossible to put across the full picture online.

Seriously though, the point still stands. My friend has her 10wk old german shepherd pup on a half check collar (martingale, but tight) and the poor pup freaks and flails & backs away when it tightens. But the breeder recommended it and her 12 dogs were well behaved, so it must be right. And my 5 dogs are noisy, barky, jump up, don't always walk 100% loose lead 100% of the time, don't always come back everytime, shout at other dogs sometimes, steal food etc. And ok, most of that is because they are terriers *sigh* but other people just see nightmare dogs vs well behaved dogs, so it is obvious who they will listen too.

At puppy classes theres a gorgeous boxer who despite trainers best.efforts it is clear the guy is harsh with her at home. She's the best behaved in the class. So whilst we watch and go "poor pup, she flinched away from him then", the rest of the class see a perfect dog.

[jacksdad]

But you haven't met them
You guys only really get the edited highlights, it's almost impossible to put across the full picture online.

but that is true for all our dogs. I don't think you are giving your self OR your dogs enough credit. I don't think anyone here is under any illusion that you have perfect, never any problem dogs. But I think our distance also is giving us a perspective you are denying your self. you have done good with your dogs. you have had a lot of challenges and probably will for their entire lives. But you are meeting them, you are meeting the needs of the dogs, you are doing a good job.

There is nothing wrong with taking pride in the work you have done and the things accomplished. Yes, we may not see all their imperfect moments, but that is ok. and it is ok that they have imperfect moments, and those moments do NOT negate the progress, the successes, the achievements you have made and your dogs have made.

[OnceInAWeil]

This morning I omitted a most important extra, for which I thank Jacksdad.

For a lot of people, it is rewarding to them when they frighten or punish their dogs. Sometimes they are aware of this - sometimes not.

Therefore those of us who train dogs and their people need to offer the people side of things a bigger reward than they already get from punishing their dogs. And we need to give them 'words' to give to the people who tell them they should be punishing their dogs. And we need to find ways of explaining that what makes good TV doesn't necessarily make good dog training, and the books published 30 years ago containing scientific theory from 40, 50, 60 years ago are out of date.

Uphill task doesn't begin to describe it - but as I said to a group of trainers recently: we can only change the world one person at a time.

Has anyone read The Human Half of Dog Training? I'm finding it very insightful, and VanFleet explains that people have a need for both control and predictability. Some people don't even try training because it's an unknown, and even though pee in the house every day is unpleasant, it's predictable. And some people who feel like they don't have control will try to take back that control through exerting their will over others (and this tends to be true with spouse, child, and animal abusers).