Vent!

[DianeLDL]

Once in a Weil, I live on the Nevada/Idaho state line-- on the Nevada side. But I am originally from one of the "Four Corner States," Utah, in the southern-most part. So yeah, I'm a desert rat too.

I would have no problem killing something for myself and my human family to eat also (example, deer or rabbits). I have hunted, but so far have not actually hit anything-- I did not have the correct weapon, or I was too slow to take aim. But I don't have an issue with it, so long as it doesn't take a million shots to put the blessed creature out of its suffering.

Fundog and Once in a Weil,

You hit upon the real problem and, yes, hit is the key. It really takes a good marksman or markswoman to hit a moving target. One thing that nothers me the most about hunters who are not well trained are the numerous deer and moose who are maimed and then run off to either die in the woods or run across the roads, wel, you can guess.

I also have problems with those who are not trained and hit other animals such as dogs and even people. In Maine, a few years ago, a kid killed his friend when out hunting without adult supervision or proper training.

It is much easier to hit an animal that is standing still for slaughter as Fundog described about goats and sheep. But, once a deer or moose is just maimed, it takes skill to bring them down.

What I really have a problem with is bear hunting in Maine and probably other areas. Someone we know in Maine has several dogs who have been trained to help track and attack bears to help their owner kill the bear. That scares me in that in this case his dogs are in real danger.

My OH has a friend from Eastern Tennessee who is a master hunter and has no problems bagging his fill of deer.

But, as I had said, it takes someone really trained and practiced to hit a deer, moose, rabbit, and wild turkeys and get them in just the right area to bring them down immediately.

In all of our areas, though, we are faced with coyotes and lions who have found their way into developed areas as their food sources have diminished thanks to humans.

In Tucson, we always warned newcomers never to leave cats and small dogs outside as they can be coyote food. On a walk, years ago before I had my dog, I came across an injured rabbit. I was told that it was probably a coyote. Poor thing. There was nothing I could do to save it.

Need to get moving.

We will need to connect another time.

Diane

[jacksdad]

Yeah, I think that if you are going to use a gun, you should be well-trained to do so (which I certainly am not).

I agree mostly. What I mean by that is most classes and ranges mostly teach you what is safe to function in those specific environments, not necessarily what is best in the real world. An extreme example of this is when after a prolonged time of peace our military finds it's self in a war. Our troops have range safety drilled into them, but range safety rules end up getting people killed in the field during war. While most of us won't ever face that extreme of a situation, the point I am trying to make is that safety is 90% common sense, self control and following 4 simple rules. 10% actual instruction and practice. I actually have come to the conclusion that the more rules you create to cover as many situations as possible trying to "be safe" with a gun the more unsafe you become.

I have been to gun ranges where after going through their list of rules you are left with "they do remember I came here to shoot right? " . Even 95% of the safety preached in the two hunters safety classes I attended over the years was best forgotten. In my opinion, the more rules you have, the more distraction you create. The person trying to hunt for example is in theory thinking wait, I am in situation E, now was it rule 145 or rule 2020 that I needed to follow in this situation. you want people focusing on what is happening around them, where their gun is pointed, etc...not trying to remember 1000+ rules and which one applies to the current situation.

These are the only 4 rules of gun safety you ever HAVE to know. If you follow these 4 rules religiously you will be safe in just about any situation. I personally haven't yet heard or thought of a situation where these 4 rules didn't come into play.

All guns are always loaded (clearly guns are not always going to be loaded, but if you treat every gun as loaded as the norm, even once you have verified it is unloaded your self as you never take anyone's word on this but your own, then there would be no "accidents")
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy (if you aren't willing to shoot it, don't point gun at it. that simple)
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (finger only on the trigger if you are willing to shooting where your muzzle is pointing)
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it (stuff happens, if aren't willing to shoot what is behind your target, finger off the trigger and move your muzzle somewhere else)

99% of all firearms accidents are a violation of one or more of these rules.

a good training class will not load you down with rules, but will teach you fundamentals for handling and marksmanship, and put you in controlled situation where you have to think about the 4 rules and how to apply them and still hit your target, and really reinforce good practices...build that muscle memory for applying the 4 rules. It is good habits that make you safe, not 1000 rules.

The good news is, there are more and more classes that are trying to teach real world safety/handling vs range safety only. this is a fairly new phenomenon believe it or not. historically most gun training was how to be safe at the range only. Arizona is actually home to a school that pioneered this concept back in the 70's. but it was only the last 10 maybe 15 years that this style started becoming the norm, verse the exception.

Being safe with a gun is about 80% just being comfortable holding, using carrying it around. The remaining 20% is learning the 4 rules, how to operate your particular gun, fundamentals of marksmanship, and practice, practice, practice.

[Nettle]

Just as an aside, are we all familiar with the poem 'A Father's Advice To His Son' that starts:

'Never ever let your gun
Pointed be at anyone
That it might unloaded be
Matters not one jot to me'

and ends:
'All the pheasants ever bred
Won't make up for one man dead' ?

Re: the coyote/rabbit interface for Diane - wild animals don't wound where there is such a size difference. The prey animal is dead or free. This is why my preferred hunting with just the dog is morally acceptable to me (though perhaps not to some of those who have never seen it).

Mr. Nettle shoots, and is very safety-conscious, but I favour a more ancient form of hunting. We eat well.

[Swanny1790]

I'm in full agreement with Jacksdad on this topic. Those four basic rules, strictly followed with the greatest degree of discipline, cover all situations in which one might handle a firearm and represent the current teaching at most law enforcement and defensive firearms training programs in the U.S. today. In recent years the hunter education program in my state has adopted a similar approach, and it's been shown effective.

[DianeLDL]

Jacksdad,

Fantastic explanation! You put it so succintly. You sound like my husband when it comes to guns. First thing I learned is to assume every gun is loaded including that there is one in the chamber. I agree that range shooting is nothing like real life.

My husband has offered to take me shooting. But, when I told him I could never shoot anything, he said that is it. No guns for me. If you cannot use the gun when you need to, then don't have one. His friend here just took his wife's gun from her since she told him she couldnt shoot anything.

While we were in Maine, there was a home invasion of the home of a 70 year old man. He pulled out his gun to frighten the kids but he was no match when they took the gun from him. Now, there are a couple of drug crazed kids in Maine with a gun.

Nettle, come to think of it, you are right. The rabbit I saw must have been injured by a car. A coyote would have killed and eaten him. I actually admire those who go hunting with the long bow in Maine. That really takes some skill.

When I mentioned that we know someone who goes bear hunting with his dogs, he also uses a gun. He is another retired US Marine. At least, he does prepare the bear meat for them and the dogs.

Look at how many dogs have been bred for hunting whether birds, rabbits, fox, rats, etc.
So Nettle you are right to think dog when hunting.

You are all talking to a city girl whose only knowledge about guns came from TV growing up. I went to a shooting range with my second ex. And he also stressed assuming any gun is loaded. But, I was uncomfortable and nothing like living with an active and abusive alcoholic who had quite a large gun collection.

My current husband grew up in the country on a farm and learned to shoot and hunt as a kid. It was no accident that when he was in the US Marine Corps he easily earned expert marksman and sniper. After nearly three tours as a grunt and in recon in Vietnam and as his work in law enforcement, I trust that he has had quite a bit of real world experience in shooting and not just animals. He used to carry five guns on him at all times, but as he has aged, he no longer has any guns. He has long given up hunting. I would starve if I had to clean an animal. Remember, I am a city girl who buys chicken cut up with no bones or skin.

Now, my husband carries knives to throw and fight.

But, that also makes me uneasy. My brother was murdered by his wife with a kitchen knife. (She had a history of paranoid schizophrenia and had gone off of her meds. She is spending life at Napa State Hospital in Napa, California.) He was 23 years old and thought he could handle her. Thirty four stab wounds while in his underwear says otherwise.

I think that my dad regrets that he never taught my brother to fight. Dad was a boxer in the Navy. My brother didn't play sports either. I was three years older and when we fought, I would pin him to the ground. At least until he grew bigger and taller. My brother is the one who graduated from UC Santa Cruz with a BS in Chemistry. He had the brains but no brawn. He missed the draft so didn't go in the military.

Enough before I start crying.

Diane

[Swanny1790]

My husband has offered to take me shooting. But, when I told him I could never shoot anything, he said that is it. No guns for me. If you cannot use the gun when you need to, then don't have one. His friend here just took his wife's gun from her since she told him she couldnt shoot anything.

Good on both those gentlemen, and their understanding ladies. I think it important to determine whether or not you are willing to kill if necessary to protect your life or that of another BEFORE you get into that situation.

We've lot some very good medics at my job because of that same determination. Our job is a dual-role gig, working as armed security officers when we aren't seeing patients. Security represents about 80% to 85% of our time on the job. I've been a bit surprised by some of the folks who tried the job and then left because they couldn't reconcile the potential ethical conflict should they be in a position where they had to use their firearm.

I do wish I could convince the upper management folks that we seriously need a strong K-9 program, though. I'd be first in line to sign up.

[OnceInAWeil]

My grandpa hunts deer and elk with a compound bow, and my dad used to do some bird hunting with a 20 gauge. Once, when my sister and I were around 6 years old, we begged our dad to take us quail hunting with him. We found our quarry and he shot it. The poor thing was still alive, so he had to break its neck. I bawled for hours. That is when I knew I would never be a hunter

Thank you for laying out those rules, jacksdad. Surprising, but I am actually familiar with all of those. And I don't think I would have any problem following them. But, like Diane, I doubt I could follow through.

Diane, that is terrible about your brother.

[DianeLDL]

Thank you for laying out those rules, jacksdad. Surprising, but I am actually familiar with all of those. And I don't think I would have any problem following them. But, like Diane, I doubt I could follow through.

Diane, that is terrible about your brother.

Thanks for your words about my brother. I mentioned it mainly to support the fact that it is people who kill and not necessarily what weapon is used.

I had heard the "rules" that Jacksdad mentioned before, too, much if it is cimmen sense, but not everyone uses common sense. Like most hunters, it does take a certain mind set to be ablt to follow through when killing an animal. Bowhunting takes a real skill, too. I remember trying to hit a target at camo with bow and arrow and not onky missed the target, but also the bales of hay holding the target. Once when I was trying to play darts in our basement, I hit the bottom of my mom's box of detergent.
So, my eye hand coordination would b horrendous if trying to hit a moving target.

Diane

[minkee]

I saw the following video and it's so distressing to watch, I had to share it :< I don't know if that's mean of me, so feel free NOT to watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN-Dq31j-H0

It's a bunch of dogs "CALM AND RELAXED" in a house as a man comes and goes, some lying down, some on treadmills. They look like the most stressed out broken dogs I've ever seen. Not a flicker of life in some of them.

The worst part is that his youtube 'advert' sort of video describes his training as "Showing our gentle approach to real world balanced dog training. Using simple techniques with clear communication we are able to keep the training as simple for the human's as it is for the dog." and pairs shock collars with happy go lucky music. Here:

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxu6ORM ... ture=watch

I suppose this is probably incredibly common, but I tend not to ever look at these types of things. How sad that such things exist, and that people can believe that they're good. I suppose the silver lining is that it drives home the point of how important it is that we train the way we do.

For more depressing reading see the facebook page https://www.facebook.com/TheCalmK9

[minkee]

Umm, just thought that perhaps Emmabeth might not like such things linked? If so, sorry, please remove!

[JudyN]

That first video is scary.... and the sad thing is that we can see the mental states of the dogs for what they are, but so many just see a bunch of 'good' 'chilled' dogs

[minkee]

Yes I think that's it. It's such a simple thing to learn to read dog's body language. Easy to learn, hard to master, but the basics aren't out of anyone's grasp.

You have to wonder if the trainers are truly blind to it or just arrogant enough to like it. I thought the former but after reading little snippets from the facebook page I'm not so sure. For example finding the most uncomfortable surfaces and forcing a down to "improve their relationship". The more I read the more baffling it gets!

[ScarletSci]

Oh my god, the ear position of that dog on the mat, and the way he moves his head and cowers when thee bastard steps over him...

I just want to take those dogs home and give them all the love they deserve

[Nettle]

Would make one helluva good training video for trainers-in-waiting. Watch first with sound off, comment on dogs' body-language, watch with sound on, discuss.

How many of you have dogs that lie down to eat? Mine will lie down with a bone, but if fed out of a bowl, they all stand up. Wonder how those solid down-stays were taught.

[WufWuf]

Wonder how those solid down-stays were taught

Well according to his facebook page - not with treats and love...

You have to wonder if the trainers are truly blind to it or just arrogant enough to like it.

From knowing people who train like this, they truly love dogs, they really do, but ... for some of them, on some level, I think they do get a kick out of controlling another living animal like this. I don't think that they really get what the body langauge means as they usually mush it up with some ideas of dogs enjoying feeling submissive. I think one of the hardest things for them to let go of would be the feeling of power they get even if they wouldn't admit that.