Vent!

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WufWuf
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Re: Vent!

Post by WufWuf » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:41 am

This dude is MY age he's hardly old enough to be thinking he's seen it all. The lady who runs the rescue I'm involved with is in her 60's and just recently said "I don't know it all, no one does, I never stop learning". This lady has worked with far more dogs than ZG.

It feels a little like he's gotten stuck in communicating with dogs as if they were children and I'm not sure he realises that he's being very intimidating, he keeps talking about the fact that the dogs can feel he's love through his eyes but this doesn't fit with what I see when I watch him, not does it fit with my own experience of dogs. I feel that if I go into why I think he gets the reactions he does it will just come across like I want to rip into him and I really don't. I'm sure like most people who work with dogs he truly only wants the best for them I just worry that he's stuck in a bubble and as he's said he not going to listen to the likes of me anyway (ok tiny dig there :roll: :oops: ).

Can anyone point me in the direction of the comments he made about operant and classical conditioning as I find Facebook a little confusing :oops: and seem to have missed this discussion?
Last edited by WufWuf on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules

jacksdad
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Re: Vent!

Post by jacksdad » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:42 am

wufwuf just go to his main FB page and you can then see all the various posts to his timeline. you will find an entirely new post, verse a comment to the posts you are referring to, and there you will find his classical/operant/learning theory comments.

lucyandbella
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Re: Vent!

Post by lucyandbella » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:48 am

jacksdad wrote:wufwuf just go to his main FB page and you can then see all the various posts to his timeline. you will find an entirely new post, verse a comment to the posts you are referring to, and there you will find his classical/operant/learning theory comments.
It starts "how do you approach dog training"

WufWuf
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Re: Vent!

Post by WufWuf » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:26 am

Thanks Jacksdad I think I've found the right one.

I think he needs to take a step back and figure out what he saying and why it works or doesn't.

Does he really think either animal understands what he's saying in the situation he references? Does he think a 3 year old child has any concept of death? Maybe they understand "last time I was in this exact situation I did X and he was scary after I did it" but I think that's about the extent of it.

If a dog attempted to run into the street it just means you need to spend more time teaching them the "wait" command. To dogs a "firm" tone of voice is simply a threat and different dogs respond in different ways to this, and in my opinion it's the same with children. I think that if you find yourself needing to use a "firm" tone of voice with either species you need to take a look at what you are doing and why you are doing it.

I want to qualify this by saying that I have used a "firm" tone of voice on many dogs as this was the first method of interaction I learned but after a lot of watching and learning I realised that we should be able to teach them without using threats of any kind. I'd like him to tell me what he'd do if the dog was deaf or a dog who'd figured out that they could threaten too if they didn't think you were "tough enough"?
Last edited by WufWuf on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules

bendog
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Re: Vent!

Post by bendog » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:32 am

The treat your dog like a toddler analogy has always grated on me. I spend enough time telling my boyf that the dogs are DOGS not babies. And we should treat them like dogs.

Yes there are lots of similarities in dog training and toddler training, but that doesn't change the fact that dogs are dogs and humans are humans IMO.

gwd
Posts: 1958
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Re: Vent!

Post by gwd » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:42 am

re: my poor (now missing) tooth, thanks for all of the well wishes and after care suggestions. i can't believe that no one reminded me to put it under my pillow for the tooth fairy. damn it, i just left it on the tray at the oral surgeons office. now i will never get my shiny new quarter. :evil:

the dogs have been very, VERY interested in sniffing. amazing how good their noses are. i can't even imagine what it's like for them. how it would be to have such a discriminating olfactory system where you could pick up blood, infection, novocaine, the antibiotic gel, and all of the sniffs from other people that touched 'mommy'. for them it must be like a story to be read via smells.

nettle, they have me using chlorhexidine gluconate rinse morning and night (in addition to oral antibiotics of course)......would you suggest the tea tree rinse mid-day?

my back is still pretty messed up........and least the vicodin prescribed for the tooth has the added benefit of relieving the back pain as well.

today i'm feeling very old. .......worse, i'm complaining publically about all of my maladies. damn, if i start talking about bowel irregularities i've become my mother. :lol:
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WufWuf
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Re: Vent!

Post by WufWuf » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:29 am

GWD I rather use warm salt water than chlorhexidine gluconate, infact after I had my wisdom teeth out this is what they told me to use. I've use it with my other extractions too and I've been told it's the best thing for healing and preventing infection.
gwd wrote:the dogs have been very, VERY interested in sniffing. amazing how good their noses are. i can't even imagine what it's like for them. how it would be to have such a discriminating olfactory system where you could pick up blood, infection, novocaine, the antibiotic gel, and all of the sniffs from other people that touched 'mommy'. for them it must be like a story to be read via smells.
Last time I got back from the dentist (first half of root canal about 10 days ago) Honey was very interested in sniffing my eye on the side I'd had the work done :shock: she had a brief sniff of the side of my face and then a good investigation of my eye, I've no idea what that was about.

I hope you feel better soon )))))hugs(((((
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules

OnceInAWeil
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Location: AZ, USA

Re: Vent!

Post by OnceInAWeil » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:06 am

Gwd, I agree with Wuf about the salt water. That's what I was advised to use for my wisdom teeth extractions.

Ya for Vicodin in the meantime. :lol:

easilyconfused
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Re: Vent!

Post by easilyconfused » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:28 pm

WufWuf wrote:Last time I got back from the dentist (first half of root canal about 10 days ago) Honey was very interested in sniffing my eye on the side I'd had the work done :shock: she had a brief sniff of the side of my face and then a good investigation of my eye, I've no idea what that was about.
Your eyes/nose and throat are all internally connected. Tear ducts empty into your nasal canal.

JudyN
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Re: Vent!

Post by JudyN » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:11 pm

I quite often use the dogs = toddlers analogy - but usually in the context of 'You wouldn't leave a toddler in the same room as a chocolate cake and expect it to be there when you came back, would you?' or 'Yelling at him is as much use as yelling at a toddler having a full-blown tantrum.'
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

JudyN
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Re: Vent!

Post by JudyN » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:31 pm

No one saw me post this in the wrong thread just now, did they? :oops:

The council, in its wisdom, has turned the gate onto Dunyeats Hills into a kissing gate.

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Presumably this is to stop livestock getting off the heathland if someone leaves the gate open.

Unfortunately, large dogs can't get through it either :roll:

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I tried to lure Jasper through in some complicated manouevre that probably wouldn't have worked, but he decided to go underneath instead.

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Which is all very well, but I much preferred it when he thought that fences were impenetrable barriers :evil:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

gwd
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Re: Vent!

Post by gwd » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:45 pm

couldn't you just have him back his butt right up into the corner? from the picture it looks to be a good 40" some inches.
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JudyN
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Re: Vent!

Post by JudyN » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:02 pm

gwd wrote:couldn't you just have him back his butt right up into the corner? from the picture it looks to be a good 40" some inches.
I've just measured him lying down and he's 43" from forehead to bum :lol:

I'd have problems getting him to back in from right outside the gate without a lot of training, I reckon, although he does know 'back'. I did try to get him to go as far in as he could, with his head up into the V, so I could flip the gate and he could back out, but it was then he decided that going under was a far better option. He's not that comfortable in tight spaces - he has to do three-point turns to work his way round the furniture in small rooms and he doesn't like it!
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

gwd
Posts: 1958
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Re: Vent!

Post by gwd » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:00 pm

JudyN wrote:[ He's not that comfortable in tight spaces - he has to do three-point turns to work his way round the furniture in small rooms and he doesn't like it!
i still have not completely wrapped my head around jasper's quirks. if going under works, i guess there is not need to figure out another solution.
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Ari_RR
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Re: Vent!

Post by Ari_RR » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:08 pm

I tried to envision this... Seems that going under may work on the way in, but how would it work on the way out? He would end up going out the gate by himself....

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