Good vibes needed.

[WufWuf]

Obviously what your mom wants most is to have her children around her every single day.

In many ways life would be much easier if this were the case but what my mother really wants is to use us (her children) to get attention from the rest of the world.

I was hoping to put her out of my head for a bit then the night I posted on this thread she texted me which she hadn't done in weeks and now I'm all confilcted again and feeling like I should see her, but I also can't bare the idea of having to talk to her.

I had to google CAB as in Ireland that's the Criminal Assets Bureau (they sieze ill gotten gains) though I guess if they were feeling super generous...

I think the equivalent might be Citizens Information which I'm going to take a look at

thanks guys

[jacksdad]

Obviously what your mom wants most is to have her children around her every single day.

In many ways life would be much easier if this were the case but what my mother really wants is to use us (her children) to get attention from the rest of the world.

I would have suspected this. My mom...I do think she did in her own way care and love for us, BUT much of what she did, does, tries to do is about her. What she needs to keep her world "right", secure, her needs filled etc. It took until I had kids of my own to really see and to get this. The only time she took interest in my kids was if she was looking for free manual labor. Once I caught on to the games, it was easy to see coming a mile away, and easy to protect my kids and say no. protecting my kids made it much easier to learn to say no for my self and distance my self from her.

I was hoping to put her out of my head for a bit then the night I posted on this thread she texted me which she hadn't done in weeks and now I'm all conflicted again and feeling like I should see her, but I also can't bare the idea of having to talk to her.

Don't be conflicted. you MUST take care of your self first. Also, watch for patterns. Don't let your mom yo-yo you. this is where she pushes your buttons, gets you all worked up, Or you get sucked back in by some pay attention to me drama. then you hit your frustration wall, get some time and distance from her, then she "pulls" you back in and the cycle repeats. watch for this.

Give some thought to how you can control the interaction, Texting and Email are great ways to keep in touch, but not have to be there in person. you see her number on your phone, let it go to voice mail if you aren't in the mood to talk or if you want some clue why she is calling. then call back later when you are ready. Nothing says you have to reply to texts and Email instantly either or at all. When you are together in person, give some thought to "outs" so you can leave early, end the time together when it gets to stressful etc.

It helps to think of it as a "game" sometimes because in a lot of whats, that is what it is a game. A game to fill the emotional needs of a person who isn't emotionally healthy. But even still it takes a LOT out of you to stay one step ahead and it is certainly not a fun game.

BUT, having said all that. based on your last couple of posts, you need to be a bit "hard hearted" and take care of your self for a little while. If you have a hard time 100% cutting your self off, limit your interactions to being primarily exchanging Email and Texts. Reply when you are ready, not compulsively because a message came in. but unless she is truly on her death bed and the doctors are saying come now if you want to say good by. I wouldn't travel to see her for a month or two at least, longer if need be and put your time, energy and other resources to healing your self.

[chay]

claire, and others, i am so sorry for what you are/have gone through with your mothers

if i may offer some additional thoughts, and please do let me know if you want me to remove/edit any suggestions if it makes you uncomfortable - claire, what you describe sounds like classic abusive behavior. your family may be caught in an 'abuse cycle', driven by your mother. the issue you (and others) have described where she changes the history of what happened, and you become unsure of yourself is a technique called "gaslighting", where the abuser manipulates the story to cause the victim to doubt their own version of events and call into question their own perceptions of what is happening. she's also practicing "destablisation", where an abuser will refuse to acknowledge anything good about/done by the victim, consistently point out negative things to/about them, with the intent to undermine any effort made by the victim as never being "good enough". one of the criteria for this tactic is actually listed as "setting victim up to fail" - which is particularly apt for this forum!

if you feel you or your siblings need more support, i would suggest you consider reaching out to a domestic abuse hotline. they are not just for victims of violence, but psychological abuse too. i have no doubt your mother has medical issues AS WELL - but medical doctors often aren't equipped to deal with psychologically abusive behavioral issues, so might not be able to offer you the sort of support/guidance you need beyond keeping her medicated. abuse organisations will recognise exactly what she is doing and may be able to offer some additional strategies / coping mechanisms that you and your family can utilise to protect yourselves.

as others have pointed out - whatever her medical condition (if indeed she even has one), her behavior is unacceptable. the only way you can win this game, is to refuse to play it. remove yourself physically AND emotionally, and only deal with her on the most superficial level you can. you can not change your mother - you can only change the way you react to her.

[WufWuf]

Thanks guys.

claire, what you describe sounds like classic abusive behavior

Chay it's very interesting to me that you wrote this as I tried to broach this subject with my sister recently but she didn't seem to agree saying that my mother did the best she could considering her circumstances (truely awful childhood). I felt that this didn't excuse the behaviour or make it not true but she feels that my mother is not aware of what she's doing so it's not really her fault. I'm not so sure, my mother is super smart (outscoring her dr on the congnition test they gave her) and it's just hard to know what's going on.

My sisters and I had decided we didn't want to go to family therapy again but when one of my sisters mentioned this to my mother she said that she wanted to go. Her reason was that she felt that it was very unbalanced and it wasn't supposed to be like that. I think that she wants the therapist to side with her more but I just don't see that happening. The session did start off in a sort of everyone get's their say fashion but I think it became clear to the therapist that we (sisters) were not lying but my mother was. We felt awful saying the things we did as just just looks like my mother has no idea what she's doing and we don't feel that she's going to change so what's the point in hurting her? Now I don't know what to do. I still haven't spoken to or seen my mother and really I don't want to but my guilt is still strong.

** I just got a call from sister to say that the psychiatrist that's looking after my mother (not family therapist) called her as my mother told her we didn't want to go to the FT again. She said that she understood our feelings but felt that it might be worth our while trying one more session if we felt we could. She said it's not about changing mam but about helping to clear the air some what. One of the sisters still doesn't want to go but Eldest and myself will give it one more shot.

On a positive note my husband applied for a tax refund for the 4 years we've been married and we got the news that we will be getting a refund of a few thousand within the next 2 weeks!!!! How awesome is that? It should mean that we will be able to pay our rent for the next few months while my OH job hunts. I tell you that's a big weight off my mind!

[jacksdad]

I agree with chay, the only reason I haven't said the same thing was I didn't know where you were at with all this in terms of being open to the the idea of your mom being an abuser. I have reached the conclusion that mental/emotional abuse is harder to deal with in some ways. when someone beats you, leaves very little doubt that they did something abusive. when someone plays with your mind and emotions, particularly if they are in that grey area between "normal" and "not in control/self aware", it is much harder because it can be subtler and not quite as obvious. Particularly if how your treated by someone is your "normal" with them. Example a child who has a mentally/emotionally abusive parent. because that behavior is all you have ever known, it becomes kind of normal so it is harder to see a abnormal and wrong or abusive. complicated by the fact the parent still took care of you, fed you, got you to the doctor, bought presents on birthday, etc, etc. because of that some people have a harder time coming to terms with the idea that a person who had kind, caring, loving moments is also an abuser.

I am no therapist or psychiatrist but based on what you have shared, I strongly suspect your mom IS aware of what she says and does and to some level the effect. BUT she is in denial and struggling to fill her own needs, address her own insecurities/fear/or whatever her issue is. Think of it like an alcoholic. many parallels there.

Again, not a therapist or psychiatrist, but I question the value of family therapy at this time. I am getting the picture of all you sitting in a room together and talking about each other in front of each other. If that is the case, I am thinking you and your sisters might get more value out of some one on one therapy where other family members are NOT in the same room. Particularly based on what you continue to share about your sisters and mother. Assuming you are interested in talking with someone that is. Oh and I would also suggest focusing on your self in these sessions, how to heal, how to deal with your mom, sisters etc. I wouldn't put a lot of effort and thought to fixing your mom, not your job/responsibility and it may not be possible to fix her.

If you know the answer to this you don't have to answer publicly, but has anyone given a diagnosis as to what they think is going on with your mother? sometimes that helps. It lets you kind of sort out what is fixable, what is reasonable to hold your mother accountable for, what isn't reasonable, tools for dealing with her etc.

I know just me saying it won't make it any easier, but do try to go easy on your self regarding feeling guilty. Your not doing anything wrong by taking a break from your mother.

Oh and congrats on the tax refund I can only imagine the stress relief that was.

[Fundog]

Congratulations on the tax refund! What a load off your mind!

[chay]

agree completely jacksdad, i was a bit wary of mentioning it in those terms too - and as claire's sister has shown, it can be EXTREMELY confronting being asked to consider that someone you love dearly might actually be abusive. unfortunately, the two are not mutually exclusive - people you love and who love you, can treat each other absolutely abhorrently. you can accept she loves you (in her own way) without accepting that love has to come with conditional behavior that puts you in a firing line that is detrimental to your OWN health and wellbeing.

i wanted to put that word on it specifically, because i believe it can be extremely freeing to realise that your version of "normal" actually isn't "okay", and then start looking at your other options as very being real. it took a dear friend of mine literally years of intermittently telling our social circle "funny" stories about her (highly psychologically abusive) family, and us reacting not with laughs and similar stories, but with genuine concern and asking her if she was ok, or if she needed help or a place to stay (we were still at university at the time)...to realise her family dynamic was so broken, and start making those steps to remove herself from it. as jacksdad described, she had lived her whole life in it, and a particularly insidious part of this kind of abuse can be the notion passed down that only those within that family can "understand" or "look after" each other, which keeps all the players in the game and the abuse cycle continuing.

another thing i wanted to mention, was that i highly recommend you consider investing in some personal therapy - family therapy is a good thing to try, but at the end of the day you simply can't change other people's behavior. i know it can be mighty expensive, but some health insurance will cover a set amount of sessions, or look into if your workplace (or hubby's new workplace!) has an employee assistance program of sorts that might help you connect with counselors in your area.

i mention this because going to personal therapy helped me SO MUCH dealing with my own relationship with my father (not abusive in a classic sense, but highly manipulative and codependent after my mother died) and helped me get a handle on MY OWN thought processes/behavior which in turn helped me deal with his. i couldn't force him to deal with his own issues, but i could refuse to continue participating in his drawing ME into them - and this was the beginning of me being able to detach and heal my own hurts instead of always running after his.

best of luck for your next family session, claire. if nothing else, at least you can honestly say that you gave it one more go, but don't invest too much in the outcome. excellent to hear about the tax return too, what a weight off your mind!

[bendog]

I would also recommend personal therapy, or even family therapy, but just for you and your siblings without your mother there. It may occasionally be available on the NHS, not sure what situation is like in Ireland, but you may find something.

Whilst I agree with chay and jacksdad, I also don't think it is always important to put a label on behaviour, unless it's going to be helpful for you. At the end of the day, whether it's abuse, co-dependence, her mental health issues (has Borderline Personality Disorder been considered?) or whatever else, it doesn't really matter, neither does it really matter why your mother is like she is, it may help you understand her behaviour, but then it's all too easy to feel sorry for her, and rationalise that she can't help it, and feel that therefore it shouldn't upset you. All that really matters is that it has a detrimental impact on you and your siblings, so you need to find a way to deal with it.

Our family tried family therapy for a few sessions, and it really didn't work. Aside from it feeling like an episode of Jeremy Kyle, (seriously, there were tears, and people storming out, and everything! ) - certain members of the family were presenting a rosy picture of themselves and painting others black, it was mainly geared towards helping my brother, and helping the family know what he struggles with and how best to help him, but this meant that other issues were pushed to the side and only really his feelings were taken into account, so I didn't feel it was really helpful for anyone and actually worsened some issues.

Good luck with it, but remember to draw the line, and try not to feel guilty about it. My Nan is very manipulative and is fantastic at making me feel guilty, but in the end, behaving like that only pushes me further away. Your mother may realise that if she continues the way she is she will lose her family, and perhaps that will be the reality check she needs to behave herself at least whilst her children are with her. If you feel you can stay in touch via email, text, the occasional visit, then do that, if you feel you need to cut off contact completely, do that instead. It's your choice.

Great to hear about the tax return!

[WufWuf]

Example a child who has a mentally/emotionally abusive parent. because that behavior is all you have ever known, it becomes kind of normal so it is harder to see a abnormal and wrong or abusive. complicated by the fact the parent still took care of you, fed you, got you to the doctor, bought presents on birthday, etc, etc. because of that some people have a harder time coming to terms with the idea that a person who had kind, caring, loving moments is also an abuser.

I think this is a huge factor and I'm so glad you said that as it's been playing on my mind, I had to sew a button on OH suit just as he left for a meeting with a recrutiment agency and all I could think was I wouldn't know how to sew without my mother. The thing I keep using to remind myself is that mothers don't dig their figernails into your ribs when they hug you. She'd do it til you pulled away and then laugh and pull you back like it was a joke, then she'd do it again.

It's also the reason my brother uses for excusing her behaviour and a factor in my eldest sister not accepting her as an abuser. I feel I may have given the wrong impression about my siblings, all in all we are fairly united. The 3 of us sisters in particuler, infact sister no.2 and I have had a difficult relationship which was created by our mother (same with her and the eldest sister). Since she was the last one to realise that our mother was cracked it was hard to communicate but one of the good things that has come from all of this is that we have come back together and are now getting on very well. It was the coherance of us 3 sisters that made the therapist realise the we were not the problem.

What the eldest (S1) suggested was that as it looked like we were all (sisters not brother) going to end up cutting off/limiting contact we might as well give the therapy one more shot, suggesting that it might help us confirm that this was the only course of action. Since the start I felt that it was wrong to ask the victims of abuse to attend therapy with their abuser but S1 wants to give it another try I feel like I should support her. I decided that it it was going badly I would simply say "I'm not comfortable with this I'll wait outside" and leave without a scene (which I think is want my mam would like).

We were told that she had personality disorders, at least 2 maybe more. The reading I have done about this leads me to believe that she has Narcissistic and Histrionic personality disorders and from what I've read most people end up cutting off contact or continuing the cycle of abuse. Of these choices I know which one I'd prefer.

I am no therapist or psychiatrist but based on what you have shared, I strongly suspect your mom IS aware of what she says and does and to some level the effect. BUT she is in denial and struggling to fill her own needs, address her own insecurities/fear/or whatever her issue is. Think of it like an alcoholic. many parallels there.

This is what I suspect, sometimes when you catch her out this little grin flashes across her face that makes me think she knows what she doing but she looked so shocked and lost at the therapy when we discussed the stress she caused us that it confused me. She is also a pill addict and has been her whole life really so lot's of lies with that I guess, unless she really believes that she "needs" these pills?. The thing is that although I know the dr's told her she was an addict I'm not her they told her she has personality disorders. My mother's a qualified counsellor (scary right?) and I know that she would understand what this means. She's read more books about psychiatry, mental illness and abuse then most of her dr's I would guess.

I know I'm exposing a huge amount of myself here on the internet but from reading you guys posts for the last year or so you seem like such sensible caring people and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk through all this with me. I do feel that I need to get some help with this but at the moment I'm not sure where to start. I can't afford to pay anyone until my OH gets a new job but I also think I can't wait until then to seek help. My sister told me that we can see the family therapy therapist (free) without my mother but we do need her permission. Somehow the idea of her knowing I need therapy makes my skin crawl as I know how much she'd enjoy that. I'll see how it goes at FT and then figure out what I want to do from there.

Something I've noticed is that since I agreed to go to the FT which means I'll be seeing my mother on Wedensday, my anxiety has shot up. I had nightmares about her last night and my stomach is in knots today, I think I should take this as a sign that whatever bad feelings I have around having no contact with her I have far more about having contact with her.

[Nettle]

)))))))))))))))))))))HUG((((((((((((((((((((((

Need a mindset change

You aren't 'needing therapy' you are 'seeking knowledge'. The more knowledge you gain, the less this whole business will hurt you. Especially with a parent, it gets all mixed up with expectations and fairy tales of how a parent/child relationship should be, but knowledge will help you deal with it as it IS.

Picking the good things out does not weaken your case about the bad things happening. Dealing with the bad things doesn't negate the good things.

Thank goodness for your siblings - they can be the best therapy ever, because they know how it really was, and your attending counselling will help you all to deal with how it IS instead of wasting time and emotion on trying to make it as it Should Be.


Yes I am talking from experience.

[jacksdad]

Whilst I agree with chay and jacksdad, I also don't think it is always important to put a label on behaviour, unless it's going to be helpful for you. At the end of the day, whether it's abuse, co-dependence, her mental health issues (has Borderline Personality Disorder been considered?) or whatever else, it doesn't really matter, neither does it really matter why your mother is like she is, it may help you understand her behaviour, but then it's all too easy to feel sorry for her, and rationalise that she can't help it, and feel that therefore it shouldn't upset you. All that really matters is that it has a detrimental impact on you and your siblings, so you need to find a way to deal with it.

I agree and disagree. it all depends how you use the info a diagnosis gives you. for me it helps be reminded that the person isn't "right", they are sick. that the problem isn't me, its them. That what I thought was normal, wasn't. And it also can help with developing more targeted strategies for when you do have to deal with the person in question face to face.

I actually don't think there is anything wrong with feeling sorry for someone who is acting "badly" due to mental health issues. empathy is an important clue that you aren't the sick one. it's only an issue when you allow that feeling to rationalize away the behavior or allowed it to suck you back into their world in unhealthy ways. I do feel bad for my mom, her reality/world has got to be miserable. But just because I can feel empathy doesn't mean I will allow her to walk over me. And if that means for now I don't have contact, that is what I have to do.

Interesting that you would mention BPD, it is what we strongly believe is going on with my mom, and I have actually been wondering about WuFWuf's mom as well. BPD and Narcissistic issues sometimes go hand in hand. In my case, we may never get an official diagnosis. But it's been strongly suggested by two different therapists. with of course the understanding they haven't actually been able to talk with her directly and do official diagnosis.

I didn't want to bring up BPD without more info for two reasons. One, I am not a therapist/physiologist and really didn't have enough info to suggest it. I looked up Histrionic and it also does seem fitting to what has been shared. And two, Borderline Personality Disorder was named before it was better understood. The unfortunate result is that the name, Borderline Personality Disorder sometimes leads to a incorrect "mental" picture of what is going one with the person in question. Which is why the acronym is often used, BPD, or just BP verses the full name when discussing people with or effected by people with it.

On the BPD front though, Randi Kreger wrote some really, really good books on BPD and has a really good web site http://www.bpdcentral.com/

WufWuf, I admire the risk you took reaching out. Don't worry about the "picture" you think you may or may not have painted about your siblings. so far what you have shared tracks as normal for what you are going through. some in my family clued in faster than others, but we are all pretty much on the same page now.

Somehow the idea of her knowing I need therapy makes my skin crawl as I know how much she'd enjoy that. I'll see how it goes at FT and then figure out what I want to do from there.

I completely get this.

Something I've noticed is that since I agreed to go to the FT which means I'll be seeing my mother on Wednesday, my anxiety has shot up. I had nightmares about her last night and my stomach is in knots today, I think I should take this as a sign that whatever bad feelings I have around having no contact with her I have far more about having contact with her.

just like we advise that our dogs need breaks from what stress them for a "short" while, you need a break from what is stressing you. this is normal, natural, necessary and though far easier to say than do, nothing to feel guilty about.

[chay]

You aren't 'needing therapy' you are 'seeking knowledge'. The more knowledge you gain, the less this whole business will hurt you. Especially with a parent, it gets all mixed up with expectations and fairy tales of how a parent/child relationship should be, but knowledge will help you deal with it as it IS.

bingo! wuf wuf, even if you can't suss personal therapy in the immediate instance, you can start seeking knowledge and informing yourself. i highly recommend this book >> http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Will-I- ... 1439129432 << - which is specifically for daughters of narcissistic mothers (and might he helpful for your sisters too, if you think they might be open to it)

i also second jacksdad into reaching out online, there are specific communities for children of abusive parents and loved ones with personality disorders. just sharing your story with others who understand (like here already!) can help get you through those times when it all just feels too overwhelming and you need a reminder that you CAN embrace strategies to help get you out of the nightmare.

one thing i just urge you to keep in mind - at the end of the day her diagnoses might EXPLAIN some of her behavior - but it does not EXCUSE her behavior. you can accept rationally that some behavior may be caused by ABC, while still taking steps XYZ to avoid it.

[jacksdad]

one thing i just urge you to keep in mind - at the end of the day her diagnoses might EXPLAIN some of her behavior - but it does not EXCUSE her behavior. you can accept rationally that some behavior may be caused by ABC, while still taking steps XYZ to avoid it.

very good point.

[WufWuf]

I've been really conflicted/stressed since family therapy the other day. It was horrible again and I was very frustrated with my mother as she just seems to be unable to see what she's doing. I called her on a couple of things and I'm glad I got them off my chest (such as telling the dr's that she tried to kill herself because of the neglect of her children) but it just seems to go over her head. The good thing was that the therapist noticed that we just felt that we couldn't really say what we wanted to say with our mother there (I mentioned that when we met our mother outside she told us that she felt like going home and killing herself after the last session). She suggested that we come without her which we agreed to but it's 5 weeks away and at the moment that feel like forever.

As we were leaving she kept saying "I miss you, I miss you, will you come up to me with Honey and I'll cook you dinner". Made me feel sick to hear her say my girls name. Then I spoke to the sister who didn't come and she told me that my mother is trying to turn her and my brother against me telling them that I was vicious to her etc (and that she did everything for me when I was a baby ) . It's not going to work with my sister but it might have an influence on my brother. He won't go to the FT and say's that although she's horrible she's our mother so we have to just deal with it. I'm not sure if I agree but I feel like I'm being pushed into maintaining a relationship with her no matter the cost to me. The therapist was asking me what I could do to support my mother and I just felt like saying, well I'd best not write that there are minors on here after all, but it wasn't anything nice. At the same time I get very torn and think well maybe she's not that bad and I'm just a horrible person - I do feel pity for her but I'm not convinced that she has any true feelings for me I feel like it's all just been a lie.

I'm also really doubting myself and feeling like I can't trust how I think or feel about anything. I'm almost afraid to open my mouth for fear that I'm just a crazy lady with some hidden motivation that I don't know about.

I think I'm driving my OH a little crazy with my mood too and my poor Honey girl is all out of sorts with the routine change. With my OH out of work things are not as calm as they were and he has a little trouble understanding that although he's exciting to her he's also scary (big movements, not noticing if she's under his feet, walking her in scary places) I think he's starting to get that he can't just walk her where ever he likes as she was shutdown after the last walk he did with her and he did notice and asked me what was wrong with her. He loves her dearly he's just not as in tune with her body language and mistakes fear for excitement. She's also super sensitive to my moods and I'm trying hard to be ok but I see her getting upset/wigged out when I'm stressed. She's very jumpy and is back to flinching if I move my hands near her. She's aso very clingy and won't sit with my OH, it has to be me, she'll back away and hide if she's trying to get my attention he tries to help by asking her to come to him instead. On the plus side Honey's LOVING the RMB diet and seems to be doing really well, I've some questions but I'll post in the right place for that.

Whooo I waffled on lot's more then I ment to and once again I thank you guys for listening

[jacksdad]

first, the conflicted feelings, the confusion, the self doubt....all normal responses for what your going through. I think its a stellar idea to no longer have your mom in the therapy sessions, I think it might even be a good idea to strike out completely on your own in this area so you can vent and let out and talk your feelings, ask questions, just get things out without your brother/sisters in the room.

I think you might also need a different therapist...something just doesn't feel right to me. Asking you what you can do to support your mom....I am not so sure that is the right direction right now. To me, that ignores the effect she has had on you. To me...the questions / goals /issues that need to be addressed right now has to do with helping you deal with the hurt, any false guilt, and "reprogramming" your thinking and providing you tools to be better able to deal with your mom etc.

On the plus side, it sounds like your "back channel" communication between you and your sister is really good. It is important you keep each other up to date on the games, because the "bring the dog and I will cook dinner"... In my experience given what your all going through right now is HIGHLY suspect in terms of motivation. If this was my mom, it would 100% be a game to "divide and conquer" given a similar situation where we all talking to a therapist to sort things out.