I Need Your Help...

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Ari_RR
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by Ari_RR »

And yet.. There is common sense that we can fall back on too.
In every case of an unwanted behavior there is a cause and manifestation (symptom)
I personally can't think of any situation where I would prefer to address the symptom rather then addressing the cause.
The issue with pain-based tools is that (when used correctly) they address the symptoms by associating an unwanted action with pain. But they do not address the cause.
We need to keep in mind that what we see as unwanted behavior is the dog's natural response to the true cause. By associating it with pain, we not only do nothing to eliminate the cause, we amplify the impact on the dog by not allowing him to react in the most natural way.

Let's take a very common example - an aggressive dog, lunging towards other dogs when they are close, let's say within 20 feet. Yes, we can use a prong collar and create an association of lunging and pain. And it will appear initially that the dog no longer lunges.. But what have we really accomplished here?
If the cause is fear and insecurity - they are still there. The dog still is scared when other dogs are within 20 ft. And not only that, but in addition to being scared of other dogs, he is scared to express his fear, since this will mean pain.

There is no question in my mind that it is better to address the cause then the symptom. No evidence is needed here, no photographs or links, this is simply common sense.
Making the dog more secure, more confident, not afraid of and therefore not reacting to other dogs is a better way than stopping lunging by associating lunging with pain.
But, of course, unlike simply yanking the prong, addressing the true underlying issue will require time, effort, commitment on the part of the owner.
Not every owner is willing or able to put such effort and time. However, every owner wants to eliminate lunging and other unwanted behavior.

So.. Those practicing use of pain-based corrective devices, in my humble opinion, in many instances choose the much easier path of quickly suppressing the symptoms instead of dealing with underlying issues. They do this in order to achieve the desired results in the quickest timeframe, with the least amount of effort, regardless of the side effects and longer term impact on the animal.

This only covers the correct use of prongs and e-collars, where timing is perfect, and force (physical, vibration or shock level) is minimal. I have observed a training course for proper use of e-collar. It's not easy. Since (I am fairly sure of this, although I have no hard evidence) most users of prongs and e-collars do not take training classes, I would respectfully submit that most use those devices incorrectly... Thus minimizing their positive effects while increasing negative side effects.

This does not cover the cases where those devices are used with excessive force or power, leading to injuries.

Not sure what conclusion I want to draw here, to tell the truth. I guess, just wanted to separate the topic of extreme misuse of such devices, leading to severe injuries (this topic probably needs evidence) from the topic of usefulness and short/long term effectiveness of these devices, which perhaps can be discussed without necessarily having court-quality proof...

Thank you
jakesmom
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by jakesmom »

Ari, you described that really well, and I'd just like to give an genuine example.

We've owned a fair few dogs, over the years, mainly GSD's and I'd trained them without much problem. Yes, I used a choke chain, as most owners of big dogs did in the past - that's what our training school advocted. I consider myself able to use them correctly i.e. a slight snatch and release to get their attention. All of our dogs have been happy, well loved family members, able to walk on a loose lead, so no need to snatch the choke chain, once the initial training was done. They were never hit and rarely shouted at. Therefore, I had no reason to think that choke chains were bad.

But not our last dog, we took him on when his three previous owners had given up on him. We didn't know what had hit us. He was out of control, both indoors and out, and also in the car.

Eventually, in the house he was brilliant - once we'd managed to calm him down, which took close on a year and loads of patience. He was great with people - especially children, great with our other GSD, our dalmation and the three cats. He even had no problem with other dogs coming into the house.

But outside - forget it. I swear he was insane, and to make matters worse, he was bigger than the average GSD weighing in at 100 lb min. He reacted to everthing, including people sometimes, but mainly dogs. I managed to train him to do all the usual things - walk to heel on a loose lead, sit, wait, leave etc. reasonably easily, but once he saw another dog in the distance he forgot or ignored everything he knew, and he'd lunge and pull like crazy to get at them. He would literally choke himself, until they were completely out of sight, or I'd managed to get him away. But if we were taken by surprise close up (thirty feet or less), I just couldn't hold onto him for long and he'd drag me along, and my partner would have to rush to help, and even then we struggled getting any control of him. On one occasion I broke bones in my foot and badly twisted my ankle, when he turned quickly and yanked me over.

We stopped taking him out for weeks on end, we just couldn't cope with him, and were worried he would actually strangle himself, his choker pulled so tight (Not that it appeared to bothered him, I doubt he even noticed it, he was in such a frenzy)

I hated it - there had to be a better way - for both of us. But how could I even begin to work on his issues when I couldn't even hold on to him safely ?

I admit I considered using a shock collar out of desperation - but I didn't, because quite honestly, if being choked hadn't stopped him, why would an electric shock. I did, however, use a spray collar, it stopped him reacting in the car the first time I used it, but after that made no difference whatsoever.

Without whittling on anymore, suffice to say eventually after trying numerous tools we did find one that enabled me to keep control of him, the Dogmatic halter (but even this can be classed as an aversive).

So now I had better control of him, but I still didn't know how to handle his issues.

We consulted three different experienced trainers, who had no useful suggestions on how to help solve his problems. They could teach us how to train obedience i.e. walk to heel, sit etc. but he knew how to do those things anyway.

I started reading what I could find (I didn't have a computer at that time) to get some ideas how to deal with him.

We were already avoiding his triggers as much as we possibly could anyway, so that wasn't the problem.

It was about this time that IMOTD started on UK TV. I applied twice, hoping Victoria would be able to help. Unfortunately we were unlucky.

The point being, I was neither totally inexperienced or cruel, but our dog came close to ending up strangled or choked. I dread to think how high the level on an e-collar would have had to be, or the damage a prong collar would have inflicted. And as a you and others on here explain so well, it may have helped with the symtoms but not the underlying cause.

But just as Jacksdad says, things are rarely black or white. Just different shades of grey.

With our current dog, I use a no-pull harness and /or the halter, because apparently the head collar alone can cause damage, even though our vets say they won't. I don't know. I know how to use it well, but I do believe it could cause damage, if used alone with a long lead.
jacksdad
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by jacksdad »

Ari good points on symptom verse cause. Jackesmom, I think your last post there really illustrates that motivation to use these tools for most people isn't a sociopathic desire to inflict pain, most people just want a "problem/issue" fixed so they can proceed to enjoying their dog. You also make an excellent point about if we say prong/shock collars do harm, and present all the evidence and arguments to support this stance that isn't enough. you can't "take away" something without replacing it with something. It's all well and good to say these devices shouldn't be used, or that they aren't affective, cause harm etc, but we can't leave people feeling "ok, I agree and I don't WANT to hurt my dog, but if I can't/shouldn't use these tools then what to I do". We can't leave a vacuum.

Dognut, a study would be great. for some people common sense and and understanding how/why the tools work/don't work is enough. for some people they need a study. But to be complete any study MUST include follow up. there needs to be controls and very similar issues "tackled" by both "camps".

I 100% disagree with you in "Most of the comments indicate that many authors have minds that are already closed to alternate viewpoints and factual information, and make statements that have little or no verifiable proof." Frankly this makes me wonder if you really are looking for the truth and open discussion. two parties DO NOT have to EVER end up agreeing in order to be "open to alternate view points". But yes, you will not be able to change some of our minds because we have already considered the questions, the evidence, the arguments etc and reached a conclusion. But that in NO way makes us "closed minded" or not open to discussion and exchange of ideas/thoughts etc.

Many advocates of aversive methods base their position on the assumption the dog is "being bad" simply because the dog isn't doing what they want when they want it. Or to control/address "dangerous behavior". which to my mind raises serious questions about that persons knowledge/understanding of dog behavior, what's going on with their dog, and why it's doing what it's doing or not doing what they want it to be doing. Which takes us in part back to Ari's point about symptom verse cause. Most prong/shock/aversive advocates are looking at the symptom and not the cause. they also tend to anthropomorphize out an explanation (dog is doing X so it must be trying to control me for example.) OR continue to cling to very outdated/disproved studies.
wvvdiup1
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Really good points being posted to this thread from everyone, especially about addressing symptoms and causes Ari_RR posted. A lot of valid points here...

I was rereading the posts on this thread to recap what has been said and I have admit I have some comments on them and will do that instead of writing or posting them in one post. As it is, I have a lot of information "floating" inside my head from reading philosophies on the topic: "Are Humans Innately Evil or Good?, so you can imagine I'm not going to be able to address any of your comments with a clear head with all that information "floating" around. In addition to that information, more information about the uses of shock collars and so on, the after-effect from their uses, and so on, and keeping the negative thoughts that humans are naturally sadistic out of my head; that is, we like to control everyone and everything by any device available. Can you imagine that battle? :roll:

Nettle said this earlier in one of her posts, "Call me naive but I am 'shocked' that professionals have not investigated these devices as part of their training - and to whom does the public go for advice?????" That's a good question/comment, Nettle, because I often wondered that myself. The main answer I get is that they feel they don't have enough evidence from their cases from what they see to do anything about it. This isn't enough in my book because they can investigate it by asking key questions and/or talk to fellow colleagues about this as they can clearly see the injuries on the dogs they see and work with. :roll:

I'll comment on some more later, when my head clears enough for me to think clearly and I no longer have a headache.
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"Common sense is instinct. Enough of it is genius." -author unknown
jacksdad
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by jacksdad »

Wvvdiup1 want to add some more to all that floating in your head already?

http://petpronews.com/learning-theory/m ... unishment/
http://petpronews.com/learning-theory/a ... ame-thing/
jacksdad
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by jacksdad »

DogNut wrote: As for using a prong collar on a wolf hybrid, observe "K2" in this video, and tell me if he seems distressed by it:
http://youtu.be/rIG65aD4O90
This video actually does NOT support either side of the prong collar debate. What is shown in the video, at least that I could see neither support a claim that this animal is being stressed by the collar or the animal is not being stressed by the collar.

The video does in fact show a dog that is very stressed, but coping fairly well. Other than the stress from riding in the car, all the activity around it while being restrained and/or the person filming could also be sources of stress for this wolf/dog. but that is only a guess in terms of what is the source.
DogNut wrote:And this is a good analysis of wolves and wolf hybrids: http://youtu.be/qfpQVjYFcSE
Actually for the first few minutes I was shocked, it wasn't half bad. A little sensational, but they were making the point that these are not really dogs and should not be pets. Maybe not as strong as I personally would have liked, but they did make those points non the less. Not all the info being presented was spot on, but close enough for the non geeky. Then about the 5 minute mark...lots of DANGEROUS and incorrect information started being presented.

So the video was a decent explanation of what a wolf/dog is, why they aren't a good idea. But absolutely wrong in showing how to deal with one.

You do NOT grab a dog's neck and growl in their face, AND you most defiantly do NOT grab a wolf or true wolf dog and do the same. Not if you want to keep your face. Also, these animals are in fact shy and fearful, that is in part why they are dangerous. Their response to their fear is to attack, not cower.
DogNut
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by DogNut »

Those are both excellent articles and they help to see why there is confusion and emotional baggage in terms such as "positive", "negative", "punishment", "correction", "reward", "bribe", "reinforcement", "pleasure", "discomfort", and "pain". If a dog or human is doing something wrong, whether it is just something undesirable or actually dangerous, it is important to alert them to that and do something to stop the behavior. Depending on the one who is being trained, it may require a variety of actions to accomplish the necessary change of behavior. Some individuals may have a high sensitivity to pain or even loud noises or angry body language, so such methods may instill fear or confusion and be detrimental to learning. But for other individuals, stronger aversives may be necessary and will not have harmful effect. But sometimes the most important thing is to be able to absolutely stop the behavior, and even create fear of the item that has caused the dangerous action. The best example may be rattlesnake avoidance, where some dogs are highly motivated to investigate the snake by getting close enough to get a fatal bite, and electric shock collars are one of the most effective ways to have the dog associate the sight, sound, and smell of the snake with a painful aversive, and it is good if the dog fears the snake, as it will likely save his life, and also will cause him to show fear when he senses a rattlesnake as you walk with him, so it may save your life as well.

Ultimately, you want to develop a mutual bond of trust and respect with your dog, and this involves communication and sensitivity to the dog's body language and levels of sensitivity. We may too often forget that the dog is an animal and has instincts and thought patterns and anotomical differences from what we have, and we can learn a lot about how we perhaps should or should not interact with dogs by watching them interact with each other in play and during puppyhood when the mother teaches her pups how to act. We can't exactly duplicate the bites and growls and body slams and signals that dogs use on each other, but I think they understand better when we try to do so using hand signals and posture and touch, rather than spoken words which are essentially foreign to them. And we really need to understand their signals (which may be calming as well as warning), so we can determine what motivates them and what truly makes them fearful. Ultimately the dog should follow your commands and even non-verbally sense your desires and act on them, totally as a matter of respect and wanting to please, rather than the expectation of a treat. But of course we should always be kind and give much love and affection at all times, except when it may reinforce an unwanted state of mind.
wvvdiup1
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Jacksdad, you're right! Those two articles you've referred me to just added to all that information "floating" inside my head, just like Mexican Jumping Beans! :lol:

Let me share some links I have with you:

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/shockcollars.html

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... VBw&zoom=1

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... VBw&zoom=1

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... VBw&zoom=1

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... VBw&zoom=1

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... VBw&zoom=1

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... iBw&zoom=1

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... =126&ty=69

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2703642524773

And, I'll throw this one in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... NtFgdwTsbU

Also, I'm looking for the new study in which researchers have found that dogs contain more salt in their blood than humans. I'll let you know as soon as I find it. :wink:

Oh, I just about forgot to post this link as well:

http://issuu.com/petprofessionalguild/d ... lor#222222 and go to pages 21-23.
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"Common sense is instinct. Enough of it is genius." -author unknown
DogNut
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by DogNut »

OK, you have "sparked" my interest. I watched the video of young people using a shock collar on their neck or leg, and their reactions varied widely, which correlates to the fact that people have different thresholds of sensation to electrical current, and also different reactions to it. Most of the people simply twitched or said that it stung or tingled or hurt, and some of them laughed, while others jumped and rolled around on the ground. They very well could have been acting, and there was no evidence of any actual physical harm.

In the facebook page it shows a woman using a shock collar on her wrist, which I think is one of the most sensitive areas of the body, and where the skin is thin and there are nerves and blood vessels close to the surface where the electrodes were placed. She was unable to feel setting #1, and got tingling or slight stinging at around #3-#4, and she progressed to 8 out of 10, at which point she calmly said that it hurt a lot, like a wasp sting or slap, and it caused an involuntary twitch of her fingers and a lingering tingle for a few seconds. Certainly not excruciating pain and no sign of damage to the skin.

There was also a "technical evaluation" by an electrical engineer, who gave his opinion that even the specified low level of energy (microjoules) could possibly vaporize a tiny section of skin if the points of the electrode were not in full contact. And then he went on to speculate that improperly designed or poorly manufactured or malfunctioning devices could deliver a much stronger jolt such as that from a tazer, which also uses a 9 volt battery and a capacitor which holds a specific amount of charge that is delivered to the electrodes. But he did not actually inspect the device or take any measurements.

Also, every one of your sources is biased toward the negative aspects of shock collars based on what appear to be a few incidents of improper use or device malfunction, and they do not include any original evaluation of the details which are very important in determining the facts. Many of the photos appear to show irritation and infection which has progressed to a serious level, and may appear to be electrical burns, although blisters from repeated rubbing will look similar. They are also from electronic fences and anti-bark collars, which I agree are much more likely to cause serious harm, because they often operate without human supervision.

But my point is that there are NO references to the "other side", where I think you will find thousands of cases where remote shock and vibration collars have been used with great success and no ill effects. Why not also include some of these? Of course, manufacturers will try to downplay the negative aspects of these tools, but there are many people I know who have used electronic collars and it has helped them tremendously and their dogs do not have any "issues" related to these tools. If you only hear one side of an argument, especially when there is a lot of emotional content, it is easy to get caught up in the rhetoric and become convinced that they are right. Just like my friend who has some conservative talk show on almost constantly and he gets really angry about their many beliefs and he seems to accept them as fact - because that's what he wants to hear and believe. If I try to give him contradictory evidence, he just gets more angry and calls me a stupid imbecile and the conversation is over.

So, since I have extensive electronics knowledge and experience, as well as having used several differfent TENS units, I will offer to conduct a test of any shock collar you choose. I'm not going to buy one just for this experiment, but surely you know of someone who no longer wants theirs, and it's better than throwing it in the trash. Besides, they should be properly recycled. Maybe you can contact a veterinarian, or an animal shelter, or an animal control officer, or even a pet store that may have returned units or even one they would like to have tested to determine just how safe it is or is not. And I'm also willing to try it on myself, and I'll provide video of the results. I have no reason to promote shock collars as I have never used one and don't intend to. But I am concerned that some people might try to pass legislation that would make it criminal to purchase, own, or use such a tool. Abuse is abuse, and that can be pretty clearly determined and punished. But I think we need to know the truth about the tool, and deal appropriately with those who ignorantly or purposely misuse it or allow it to fall into the hands of those who may.

BTW, here is the patent for the device, including a detailed description of the design: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6184790.pdf
Ari_RR
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by Ari_RR »

DogNut wrote: If I try to give him contradictory evidence, he just gets more angry and calls me a stupid imbecile and the conversation is over.
:lol: :lol: this is quite brilliant, I should try to find a way to use this approach in some of the debates I have from time to time!

I would agree that e-collars can be used without inflicting serious damage.

I would also agree that with some ingenuity (or stupidity) any household item can become a torture device. It's not the device necessarily, it's what we want to accomplish with it.

I would also agree that there are examples of people who are very happy with the results they reached using e-collars, and that their dogs seem quite happy and upbeat, at the same time obedient.

It's probably not easy to find objective information.. Just like reviews on dishwashers, for example.. The people that are unhappy write negative reviews, manufacturers put their sales pitches disguised as "information".. But the vast majority who either happy or content with their products don't bother writing anything anywhere. So, I would be hard pressed to trust homemade videos, or to make conclusions based on what average folks say on the Internet.

I would not support banning such devices.
Conducting a testing experiment is an interesting thought.. But what are you looking to prove with this test? That you ("you" being a particular human DogNut, not "you" as a some kind of average human) can tolerate low settings easily and that it gets progressively worse as you increase the power? If that's the objective of the experiment - in my opinion you can spare yourself, we should consider this point proven.

With all that said, its not the device that I disagree with, it's the approach of correcting dog's actions through pain (ok, through pain or discomfort) that I find inadequate.

However, I do also agree that there are plenty of dog owners who are way over their heads in dogs issues, who have no ability, patience, time, knowledge, etc to solve those issues the right way, but who still need solutions to those issues.

Back to the example of a fearful dog who barks and lunges when scared. I realize that it's the minority of the owners who would bother looking into what causes the aggressive behavior (fear mostly) and then work on addressing that. The majority, I am afraid, would see this as a badly behaving dog, who doesn't respond when told to shut the hell up, and who needs to be shown its place, taught a lesson, and beaten into submission. Well.. In this case using e-collar is no worse then beating the dog with a stick when it barks. E-collars are even preferable to sticks, since they allow low settings, and if correctly used, with perfect timing, allow rather precise association of punishment and action. Unfortunately, just like I don't see the majority of dog owners performing deep psychoanalysis of dogs barking, tracing it to fear, I don't see the majority of e-collar users learning the techniques of using them correctly. They are after a quick fix, and it comes from strapping the device on the dog and then pressing the button on the remote. And if the timing is off and the dog is now afraid of something else - who cares, as long as the barking stopped and neighbors no longer complain...
Those who go through the trouble of perfecting the timing of shocking the dog with e-collar might as well not need to, as it takes as much as learning to read the dogs body language, and manage the environment for the dog.

Well, anyway, this seems more of a rant then a well presented argument, i have to admit.. Although not quite in the "you stupid imbecile!" league. :lol:

I also wanted to echo earlier comments - it's good to see a generally polite and respectful exchange on a rather hot and polarizing topic. And it's good to have a well thought through and well presented dissenting view. Thanks for that.

I have observed a training course on the use of e-collar by a professional instructor. It's mostly about getting the timing right. The way this course is taught was interesting to me. Couples only (let's say husband and wife), dog, and instructor. First phase of training (after all the explanations, practice etc) ends up with a test. Husband is wearing the e-collar, and just does normal things, walks around the room, touches things, sits down, gets up, etc... Instructor whispers to wife which behavior of the husband needs to be corrected. For example - "don't let him sit on the green chair without first looking at you". Wife can't talk to husband, obviously, all she can do is press the button.
Then they reverse roles..
Then, after they both succeed, they both understand how the dog feels.. Why did he just shock me?! what did I do wrong!? Is it the green chair, or red chair, or that I didn't looked at him, or that i looked at that picture on the wall, may be i am not supposed to look at pictures!? or was it something else!?
Then they decide if they really want to proceed, and if so - only then they start working with the dog.

cheers
DogNut
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by DogNut »

Mostly I just want to do electrical testing to determine the voltage, current, power, and energy levels involved. I'll compare that to the two TENS units I have, and then I might use the shock collar on my arm or leg. And I want to see if the shock collar can produce a visible spark when the electrode is not making good contact, and see if it might be enough to cause burns. I have a feeling that the energy is low enough that a visible spark would be probably 5000 volts or so, like a static electricity jolt, and the current would be low enough and of short duration so that it would not be damaging.

There are some figures in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_collar.
  • A "remote trainer" set on a low level emits 0.000005 joules.
    A "bark collar" set on a high level emits 0.0003 joules.
    A "muscle stimulation machine" set on a "normal level" emits 2.0 joules.
    Set on a "high level" it emits 6.0 joules.
    An electric fence energizer [a "charged fence" – not a pet containment system] emits 3.2 joules.
    A modern defibrillator can emit up to 360 joules.[4]
One joule is one watt-second. So the upper level of a bark collar at 300 microjoules is 300 uW for 1 second, or more likely 3 mW for 100 mSec. If the maximum voltage is 5000 volts, that will be less than 1 microamp of current, while the threshold of sensation is usually in the milliamp range, or 1000 times higher. But with the electrodes in contact with skin, the resistance is in the order of 1000 to 10k ohms, so the corresponding current for a 100 mSec pulse would be 1.7 to 0.5 mA, which is barely at the level of perception. And this is at the highest level. But I'm making some assumptions because I do not have a collar to test. I suppose I could buy one and test it and then take it back. I have not been able to find specific figures for these quantities, and I'm curious if the information in the Wiki is correct. I'd also like to have one of the supposedly defective collars that were blamed for the burns and other injuries.

But whatever the technical details, a shock collar should be an item of last resort, and only used for a short period of time and with professional guidance and training. I would be 100% in favor of requiring a special license for their purchase and use, much like for firearms, and not allow sales to minors and criminals and mentally disturbed individuals. I think that is a campaign that has a high chance for success.
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Nettle
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Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by Nettle »

My vet is concerned about damage to the thyroid. I doubt yer average 'it doesn't do any harm and my dog is fine' respondent would even think of that. It's hard enough to get a bog-standard vet to consider thyroid issues at the best of times.

But, as a behaviourist, my main concern would be the psychological damage.

I disagree with
DogNut wrote:Ultimately the dog should follow your commands and even non-verbally sense your desires and act on them, totally as a matter of respect and wanting to please, rather than the expectation of a treat
This, to me, is leaning back towards the dog as a tool or a slave. Why should it want to please us when with a lot less effort it can please itself? Why would it want to act on our desires? Dogs exhibit the behaviour we want much more consistently if we make it worth their while. We will fail if we expect them to obey us because we are 'better' than they are. Or because it's going to hurt if they don't.
DogNut wrote:I think you will find thousands of cases where remote shock and vibration collars have been used with great success and no ill effects. Why not also include some of these?
Thousands?
DogNut wrote:there are many people I know who have used electronic collars and it has helped them tremendously and their dogs do not have any "issues" related to these tools.
Would you like to expand on this?
DogNut wrote: since I have extensive electronics knowledge and experience, as well as having used several differfent TENS units, I will offer to conduct a test of any shock collar you choose.
Since my husband works with electronics and I was a physiotherapist years ago and passed a separate exam in medical electricity - I say you don't have to know anything about electronics to evaluate an electric shock on an animal.

I can understand that you don't want to buy a collar in order to test it specifically for us here, but maybe one of your friends who has used the collar with such success won't be using it any time soon and would lend you one?

Not that a shock you were expecting has any comparison with shocking an animal that doesn't understand our whys and wherefores.

It's been a good discussion this far, but to continue to be good, can we commit to avoiding rhetoric and stay with the art of the possible :wink:

I like the idea of only licensed people having access to these devices but....who gives the licences and on what are they to be based? I suspect the only people who should legitimately be qualified to hold licences would be the higher levels of dog behaviourist. However, I suspect that the corruptness of officialdom would mean that anyone could buy a licence.....
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jakesmom
Posts: 459
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:35 pm

Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by jakesmom »

I know nothing about electronics, and this is probably a very dumb question. But what would happen if the charge were to come into contact with the metal of a prong or choke chain, especially if the collar was faulty ?
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by jacksdad »

Nettle wrote:
DogNut wrote: since I have extensive electronics knowledge and experience, as well as having used several differfent TENS units, I will offer to conduct a test of any shock collar you choose.
Since my husband works with electronics and I was a physiotherapist years ago and passed a separate exam in medical electricity - I say you don't have to know anything about electronics to evaluate an electric shock on an animal.
I am staring to hear this comparison of using electricity in a medical context and the effects of a shock collar on dogs more an more. I also have a little experience with this my self, more from the perspective of receiving treatment though. About 12ish or so years ago I was in a car accident. I got hit from behind and as you would expect lots of soft tissue injury in my neck and back resulted. Part of my physical therapy was to have to pads placed on my shoulder/neck area and apply electrical current. I honestly don't remember the explanation into the how/why etc. What I do remember is that what I felt ranged from nothing to pin pricks similar to when your arm or leg gets blood cut off then suddenly gets it back. Technically even that was pain. was it intense enough to cause me unbearable discomfort and physical damage. No. But this device was NOT designed to inflict pain. In theory this device did not need to be felt to work.

Take shock collars by comparison. Their very design is to inflict pain. Again, there is NO escaping this fact. You can dance around it all you want, but you can't escape this fact. IF the shock collar did NOT inflict pain, if when used they aren't felt, then they have ZERO value. They are by design intended for the Positive Punishment quadrant. These are FACTS that can NOT be in dispute if you want to have a honest discussion on the use of shock collars. The fact that someone may be able to properly use one without inflicting any external physical damage to the dog is irrelevant. You are still using pain to achieve Positive Punishment with the goal of ending/stopping a behavior.

Some of the debatable aspects of shock collars are ...is the use of pain an effective training method? is it a ethical training method? what are the emotional/psychological side affects? how does the use affect the relationship between dog and handler? does the resorting to a shock collar/prong collar represent a weakness/a hole/deficiency in one's understanding of dog behavior, and one's training skills?

What isn't debatable is that shock collars/prong collars are designed to be unpleasant/inflict pain when used. Because to work they have to be unpleasant/painful or there is no point to them. to argue otherwise...well just not possible.
wvvdiup1
Posts: 3397
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:31 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: I Need Your Help...

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Did anyone read the article in the link to "Barks From The Guild March 2012" issue, where it compares that many shock collars use the same 9-volt battery as a stun gun or Tazer and both use the same configuration -that is, both store energy in a "capacitor" and both use a trigger to release its energy? I don't know about any of you, but I know the feel of a Tazor or stun gun, because I was "volunteered" as a subject when the state police in my area were training to use this device. Let me tell you (pardon my language) that even on the lowest setting, it "freakin' hurt!" The initial shock didn't just paralyze me and the other "subjects", but it left a nice red mark that was a little burn (a half-degree burn, nonetheless, a burn) where the probes attached to our backs. When the tingling started in our arms and the rest of our bodies, finally regaining feeling and movement in our bodies, we felt the burns, which were treated right away. Personally, I haven't felt that sensation since the doctors placed this device on my back, where I was injured in a bad fall a few years before that training experience.

Needless to say, except for the Tazer or stun gun, that medical device placed at the injury in back wasn't supposed to be painful, but it was. Obviously, the Tazer or stun gun is just to incapacitate the offender, but not deliver that much pain. Still, I wouldn't go through that again, even if my back or any part of my body to help it heal. Still, I can imagine what pain a dog goes through when someone -its owner- presses that trigger to send that little bit of energy to shock to stop it or control the unwanted behavior, especially around the neck, which is sensative.

With that being said, the psychological effects must be something else for the dog. I know from my experiences I have fear, so can you imagine what fears a dog has when it has been subjected to electrical shocks? I know I won't even touch a light switch without having something on my hand to turn on or off a light, an appliance, my computer, and so on.

Shock collars or any aversive training device does not address the problems, issues, symptoms, and causes of behavior in dogs. That takes education (observing, learning, and knowing dog behaviors) and management (learning and removing stressors or trigger objects that cause the dog to react or act the way it does). No such device should be needed in working and training the dog from any unwanted behavior. For example, if your dog barks everytime a person walks by, get your dog acclimated or used to this by taking your outside, when people walk by, refocus your dog's attention to you by making noises and having its favorite toys or treats with you, but only rewarding your dog only when your dog ignores the person or people walking by by not barking at them. This is one way, but there are other creative ways to work and train your dog. As you know, it takes time to do all this, but it is time well worth it without the using aversive techniques, causing physical injuries, and psychological and neurological problems, issues, or behaviors with your dog.
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