Your experience of working with dogs.

[minkee]

Well hello there :)

You may (or may not!) remember that a short while ago I was asking about courses for dog behaviour / dog training, and so on. I'm in more of a position to seriously think about doing this now, and I'd love it if those of you who have a career in this area could let me know how you've found it. I'm super interested in all the theory, in training my own pup, in spreading the +R message and so on, but I'd like to know a bit about what I'd have in store for me if I pursued this as a job :) At the moment I work as a freelance illustrator, and I always loved to draw 24/7, but since it became my job, drawing feels a lot more like work than like fun. My gut feelings is that to work with people, to help them and their animals would be very satisfying when it worked out, frustrating when it didn't, and also something where you'd never stop learning.

How did you set up? How do you find the 'running a business' aspect? Any useful advice? :) Is it 'worth it'?!

[jacksdad]

One of Victoria's bloggers Nicole Wilde wrote about called "so you want to be a dog trainer". might be worth checking out
http://www.phantompub.com/SoYouWanttobeaTrainer.htm

Jean Donaldson runs a Dog training academy that is worth checking out. if nothing else her recommended book list is worth a visit for building skills other than basic trainer (ie teaching people to teach sit, stay, down ) so that you can also discuss behavior.
http://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/

then of course there is volunteering at a shelter to get exposed to a wider variety of dogs and behaviors and situations.

[minkee]

Well there's quite a good sounding course that I've had my eye on for a while now at one of the (fairly) local colleges here - Mattie recommended it to me, infact. But before splashing out on a 3 year part time course, I need to have a serious think about whether this is something I'd want to pursue as a career or not, because although I'd love to do the course anyway, it's not something I can really afford to do as just part of an interest / hobby!

Thanks for the links, I'm going to read through them right now. :)

[Fundog]

I once read a quote that said, "Even the worst day working with dogs is better than the best day in a cubicle." So maybe that will help you decide.

[Nettle]

From someone in the trade....

Long before you commit to any course, read read read all you can, good and bad, watch those Youtubes with the sound off and reading the dogs' body language, then watch with the sound on, watch dogs in every situation you can - an hour in the dog park is worth a day in school volunteer at kennels of all sorts, watch all the working dogs you can and see how they compare with pet dogs you see, go to lectures and seminars, ask trainers if you can work with them as an assistant, learn all you can about different breeds and types of dog, and keep a dog if you can. Watch everything with a critical eye, though you may have to keep your mouth shut (is why we have one mouth two ears two eyes) believe NOTHING, question (in your mind) EVERYTHING and remember there are many roads to the same destination and you need to see the rough rutted tracks as well as the highways.

I have a number of academic qualifications relevant to this work, and I say with my hand on my heart that academia will get you the wrong idea unless teamed with experience and dog-savviness, because academic work cannot help but be a few years behind what is really being discovered. Dog training and behaviour as an industry is really hopping now, and fetching up a lot of dross with the gold. Nothing at all is better than experience, and there is no quick way to get that, but experience will give you the courage to challenge and disagree where necessary, and make a far better dog person of you.

Meanwhile, you need to be pretty sharp on human psychology, some basic counselling skills are useful, you need to be a red-hot communicator and teacher, because people are what you will be teaching (there are honestly very few problems with dogs that are not really communication problems with people) become au fait with dog law in your country, and don't forget you will need to know a bit about insurance, tax and book-keeping.

Otherwise it's a doddle

[jacksdad]

I once read a quote that said, "Even the worst day working with dogs is better than the best day in a cubicle." So maybe that will help you decide.

I can vouch for that and I don't even make my living working with dogs *returns to cube*

[Nettle]

Oh, and for your other questions - I don't train full-time because then I wouldn't enjoy it half as much, and if I don't enjoy it, my clients are not getting the best value.

In your position I'd work half and half with the illustrating, so that you have money coming in while you learn. Then you should enjoy both disciplines.

[minkee]

Thanks for all the input, Nettle especially :)

I got my first pup, Scout, a year and a half ago, when I was 25 or so (I always wanted a pup when I was young, but my mum was a complete "no animals" person). At which point, I immediately read absolutely every scrap of puppy information I could get my hands on. It took me a long while before I discovered the positive training style that I now wouldn't drop for anything in the world (so many Other Man recommendations from friends + family). I watch everything I can, observe all the dogs (and their people) I can when out. Partly because it's necessary, just to watch what my dog is doing, what the other dog wants, whether they want to play or stay the hell away from each other, whether the other owners want them to play or stay the hell away from each other, and so on, but mostly because it's completely fascinating. Especially when evidence shows the dog feeling one way and their owners saying something completely different... anyway, I digress...

What I haven't done is take the next step where I can say to anyone 'Yeah I know what I'm doing, let me help your kennels / your dog / your dog training business' - because I feel like although I know a lot of theory, there's a big step between that and laying hands on an animal. Which is essentially what you're saying too, Nettle, except that I had this course in mind as the next step, whereas perhaps something more hands on would be more helpful. Volunteering at a shelter sounds like it'd be a better option at this point :) I did get in touch with one or two last year, via email, with no reply. I'd thought they'd be more keen for help! Will have to try phoning up instead.

I'd love to work with a trainer, too, and see how it all works. However all the local ones I know of round here (Yorkshire) are pretty old fashioned. I'm sure seeing them in action could be useful too, but I really don't know if I could watch and bite my tongue. The only +R trainer I know (and who we had puppy classes with) seems to have retired from dog training altogether. I'd also like to see working dogs in action, and see the training involved there - I imagine it's a cut above regular ol' 'Sit Bessie' training. I have no clue where the entrances to those circles are, though!

For anyone interested, the course that Mattie recommended me a while back was this one: http://www.bishopb-college.ac.uk/index. ... courseId=8

[Nettle]

If your +R trainer has retired, s/he may well be happy to take on a willing apprentice. When we get old, we realise we have a wealth of knowledge to pass on and nobody to pass it on to.

[j-f]

Ahhhhh I love this thread, talk more!!! This is exactly what I want to do too, make the world know that positive way is the best way. Starting from my country, which needs it the most right now. I'm lucky to be able to help out in a local shelter now, I already have a dog-aggressive rottweiler mix with whom I can work with. I'm using clicker with him. I've only had two sessions with him, so we're not very far, "sit" and half of a "down" yet!

[chay]

I once read a quote that said, "Even the worst day working with dogs is better than the best day in a cubicle." So maybe that will help you decide.

something i have always wondered regarding this (and i don't want to detract from the thread or minkee's aspirations at all!), but - for those "in the industry", don't you ever get fed up with repeatedly seeing people not only failing their dogs, but then willfully not taking your advice or discarding it altogether? even just on this forum i get so frustrated seeing all the people giving their time and advice and getting "no we can't do that because xyz" and not even trying, letalone seeing people do it in real time.

i would love to work with animals, but i don't know how i would deal with seeing the bad side of the way PEOPLE treat their animals, if that makes sense.

i would love to take a course of some kind even just to get to understand gypsy better rather than get a job anywhere, but for now i am taking nettle's advice to just read, research, learn, and question (everything )

[Nettle]

for those "in the industry", don't you ever get fed up with repeatedly seeing people not only failing their dogs, but then willfully not taking your advice or discarding it altogether?

It's a good question.

Nowadays I pick and choose my clients. I am old enough and have sufficient professional reputation (also another source of income!! ) that I can be completely upfront about it, and either refer on (so-and-so is much more of a specialist in your particular issue) or suggest my assistant for basic training (you don't want to pay my fees for basic training so why not see X and he will get you started) or else I can be blunt and say that when they are prepared to commit to their dog I will be prepared to take them on as clients.

People who don't commit to following your advice can be bad for your professional reputation (we had that Nettle in but it was no good and the dog still dadedadeda) so it is honestly better to avoid the kind of people who won't do as you say or (as you see so often here) come out with excuses because they can't be bothered to help the dog. Though a Behaviourist fee does put a lot of the quick-fixers off.

For myself, I want to move on to training trainers rather than continuing with the public, because it is so hard for people who want to come into the industry to find the right kind of courses. But that's for the future - as a test of what you would like, would anyone like to say what kind of seminars/day courses/articles would appeal?

[minkee]

I'd love a Day With Nettle :D Doing what, I'm not sure. If you thought it was important, or valuable, though, then I'm pretty sure it would be.

[j-f]

To Nettle - Maybe some courses on understanding your dog better - body language, signs, world from dog point of view, dog behaviour on whole and also maybe a course on puppy raising - how to do everything right from the start so there would be no big problems later in dogs life.

[chay]

thankyou for the post nettle. i hadn't even thought about the reflection on the trainer aspect, i guess that is something all trainers just have to go through when they start out until you can veto your own clients a bit better (and i'm sure going through that in itself would be an invaluable learning experience)

admittedly i am not up on what is in "regular" dog training courses now, but i imagine it is alot of "how to get dogs to sit / down / stand" stuff you see in "obedience" classes? echo j-f above, i think it would be more beneficial for there to be more focus on dog behavior and psychology, because i think after understanding THAT alot of the "training" type stuff becomes more intuitive (if that makes sense?).

i know that your dog knowing sit / down etc is actually quite important, but i think there should be more focus on why your dog SHOULD WANT to sit / down for you - not just the whole "because i'm the 'boss' and i say so" boll*cks that still seems so prevalent.

so i would love to see:
- biology 101 : why your dog is NOT a wolf and what that means to their relationship with you
- behavior 101 : why your dog is NOT being a dominant aggressive stubborn naughty willful guilty pack leader boss
- psychology 101 : why you should want your dog to WANT to do ask you ask, not as you say
- training 101: why sit / stand / down is not just for the show ring and how to make it not a boring as all hell experience for your dog
- puppies 101: why NOT to leave your 6 week old puppy shut in the laundry at night for goodness sake

and finally...will nettle's school of all things awesome accept transfer students from australia?