Um... Cow Training Anyone?

[Buddy'smyboy]

Well, Positive based methods can transcend the boundaries between species, so let's have at it, I guess!

The grass in our fields is insanely tall because true to its name, Washington has been thorougly washed in all variations of precipatation this year and the grass is seven feet tall in places , so my uncle who lives in 31102 Middle-of-Nowhere, WA (fake address... but close enough to the real thing ) and works on a cow farm- mainly beef, but also dairy- sent us two steers (after two weeks of delays from trucks breaking down) to eat it down . Cool beans... except he did somehow get their sized misrepresented on the phone. He said they were about two hundred pounds each... in reality, they are in the 400-500 pound range That's still okay though. Both of them are brown swiss cows and they have adorable faces The bigger one's name is Jessie, my uncle hand raised him so he's extra friendly, and the other is, um, Not-Jessie (NJ for short). NJ is just kind of there and follows Jessie around (he's also the cuter of the two, no offense to Jessie ).

Well, the training needed abounds from Jessie's friendliness actually. When I go into the field (because the chicken coop is on the far side of the field) Jessie usually comes right over. Jessie loves to be petted on his head, however, he also likes to use things as a scratching post for his head... including me. I'll start petting him and then he'll start trying to rub his head up an down against me. It's not aggression, just wanting attention, but he does have little stub horns and, well, any animal that's 400 pounds has a big strong head so it's not the most pleasant thing in the world, especially since he'll come over and do it to me when my back is turned, which sets me off balance. I started just pushing his head away, but since he wants it to be scratched he just keeps on coming back. So I'm trying a new tactic now. Any time he tries to rub his head against me I turn around and walk out of the field and stop giving him attention for about twenty seconds before going back in and petting him again. I haven't done it often so I don't think he's getting the message that rubbing against me= no more attention but I want to know if there's a better way to deal with this problem or if I should just keep doing this.

Another thing is treats. Apparently these cows are barn raised so if it isn't grain its... what is it? The first time they were in the field they didn't even know what to do with the grass! It should have been a cow's paradise but they looked at it like an alien no cows land. They eventually got it figured out and they've been eating grass ever since, however, they have broken into the chicken coop to get the chicken grain. We fixed it and have kept them out by putting barbed wire all away around the fence and they haven't been in since, however, they still don't know what to do with stuff that isn't grass or grain. I've tried giving them apples, sugar cubes, bread, and even strawberries, but they either don't even try it or nibble it but don't eat it. NJ humored me and licked up some sugar cubes and Jessie played with the piece of bread, but they just don't see it as food. Even my cats try more things than these cows, and they're horribly finnicky! I was thinking, maybe if I put a bunch of grass and grain in a bucket and put a bunch of other yummie treats in there if the cows would accidentally eat the yummy treats while eating the grain and then realize they're actually really, really, tasty food. I want to give them sweet treats like apples or carrots, but if they don't what they are they won't try them

Another Idea tied into giving them treats is to teach them to follow a bell. In my head, the plan would be to give them a treat and a scratching every time they hear the bell so then they'll start following me when they hear me ringing the bell and then I can just extend the time in between treat givings. Perhaps I can even incorporate a clicker .That way if I walk in there without the bell they'll eventually figure out that I don't have treats and I'm not there to give them attention and leave me alone maybe. It's not that I don't want to spend any time petting them and such, I just can't have them following me around and walking front of me when I'm trying to get water for the chickens or walk to and from the coop, or if I have to go in there for any other reason.

Any input on training a cow will be greatly appreciated, though I'm sure many of the same things that can be done with a dog can also be adapted for a cow.

[nightsrainfall]

Cow and dog mentalities are different. Dogs are highly interactive, preditory, and work in groups. Cows, while they stay in groups, don't quite have the same cooperation among the ranks, they are prey animals, and not so interactive at times, lol. Also domesticated dogs through the years have come to be more sensitive to humans (there's a cool documentary on this called Dogs Decoded). I'm only saying this as my little disclaimer that, things may not go as smoothly... There's another cool documentary on a woman who worked with cattle and ended up increasing the humanity of the actions around them, by understanding them (through observation) - I believe her name is Temple Grandin...

Actually the more I think about it, the more I am uncertain about giving suggestions, though I wish you the best of luck. The only reason I am uncertain is because interacting with something in real life, and words via internet are not the same. Plus, cows can be very dangerous. My uncle's always use to brake down the fence and barrel through everything when he got into 'a mood'. I would also say, make sure someone else is around when you are turning away. I was headbutted once by an annoyed female (uncle's farm again), and I was pretty much on the ground from it. It was lucky that cow decided that was good enough, for ground is rarely a good place to be...

So I guess my only suggestion would be to work in two or threes, lol. I hope you'll do an update though if you do figure something out. The head scratching seems like a good idea if they like it, as long as they won't bully, break, or get into 'a mood' over it.

[emmabeth]

OOooh.. interesting. Im gonna move this over to general chat because its not dog training.. but its definitely interesting!

As Nightsrainfall says - cows are not dogs (duh! hehehe), they think differently and respond differently. DEFINITELY get your hands on anything by Temple Grandin, theres a lady who gets how cows think!

I would also look at stuff about clicker training horses so go over to www.clickertraining.com as there will be some stuff there about that - although cows won't think quite like horses there will be some similar stuff that applies.

You should be able to clicker train cows - they will learn through positive reinforcement for sure, so you need to find their ideal reward - I would guess they like some similar things to horses so you could try hard mints or sugar cubes (do check that these are safe) or their may be some cattle feed that comes in pellets that is appealing and ok in small quantities.

The first and biggest issue which you touched on already is manners and personal space - where its not such a big deal if a dog tries to mug you for a treat or gets a bit jumpy, BOY is it an issue with a 500 pound steer! So teaching them to respect your personal space HAS to be the first lesson.

I would teach this from the otherside of a solid fence or better yet, solid gate or barn door (if you have such a thing with a half door on it). So you can give an immediate consequence (effectively a time out) for pushy behaviour by stepping away and the cow is prevented from squashing you by the gate/fence/door.

The other thing to look up is 'natural horsemanship' and also the Parelli branded style of natural horsemanship - there ARE some parelli videos on youtube done with cows rather than horses.

I say that though with some trepidation - w hilst SOME of the stuff they teach and advise is good and is about earning trust and having a big animal respect your space, please please please question EVERYTHING you see, because unfortunately SOME of it boils down to purely bullying behaviour from the humans - ie 'do this or it HURTS' and 'do as I say because I am MEAN if you don't'. It is up to you to filter out what is useful there and what is dangerous and I HAVE unfortunately seen Linda Parelli doing some frankly horrific things with horses, that were pointless, mean, bullying and lacked any sort of finesse or timing.

So.. filter out of that what is helpful and safe and discard what you think is bad - it is a good lesson in evaluating things for yourself and not just signing up to something because the words 'sound nice' (because believe me some of their words sound great and the accompanying action is horrific!).

[Buddy'smyboy]

Cow and dog mentalities are different. Dogs are highly interactive, preditory, and work in groups. Cows, while they stay in groups, don't quite have the same cooperation among the ranks, they are prey animals, and not so interactive at times, lol. Also domesticated dogs through the years have come to be more sensitive to humans (there's a cool documentary on this called Dogs Decoded). I'm only saying this as my little disclaimer that, things may not go as smoothly... There's another cool documentary on a woman who worked with cattle and ended up increasing the humanity of the actions around them, by understanding them (through observation) - I believe her name is Temple Grandin...

Yep, different mentalities, that I don't doubt at all, however I think it is likely they may also respond to things they find rewarding or not... just like dogs. My grandma and grandpa ran a dairy farm (uncle apparently decided to follow in their footsteps) and my grandma has told me how if she was carrying a bucket past the cows they would try to follow thinking there was treats in it, but if she had no bucket most of them wouldn't pay her any attention. To me that shows they can make some distinctions, hence my idea with the bell (a bucket would be bad in my case though because I use a bucket to collect chicken eggs ). Also, I think I've heard of her before... Hmmm...

Plus, cows can be very dangerous. My uncle's always use to brake down the fence and barrel through everything when he got into 'a mood'. I would also say, make sure someone else is around when you are turning away. I was headbutted once by an annoyed female (uncle's farm again), and I was pretty much on the ground from it. It was lucky that cow decided that was good enough, for ground is rarely a good place to be...

Yes, my uncle was actually attacked by a bull about five years ago or so. He went in the pen for whatever reason and then that's when the bull got him. Whether by accident or on purpose though, some of the cows moved in between him and the bull and he was able to get over the fence, though he had back injuries from the incident. Ground beef anyone?

Knowing my uncle, he would not send any cow with even the smallest temperment issue he could see and since he's hand raised these two he knows them well. And from what I've been experiencing with these two, it would take a bomb to set them off. My cousin Travis was over trying to move them out of the chicken coop and his first attemps involved pushing, clapping, ear and horn pulling, making loud noises, and Jessie just kept looking at him with this "what are you doing?" look on his face He eventually made this big show of going "HA! HA! HA!" and stomping around before they budged, and even then they weren't too quick about it . As mild as they seem, I'll be sure someone's always around regardless. So far the only thing I've seen that might be a thing to watch for is being sure to pay Jessie attention because if he thinks NJ is getting anything he isn't he'll come right up and push him away to get it. On the flip side I've also seen them prancing around playing though (it's pretty fun to watch )