Hunting: A Humane Practice?

[Poloplatinum]

New topic for discussion! I am really excited for this one. Since this is a forum for dog lovers/trainers. I would like to keep the topic focused on hunting with DOGS... Is it humane to send a dog into a potentially deadly situation? Where do we draw the line? How is the life of one animal more important than the other? What about hunting for sport? Hunting to survive? I personally support hunting with dogs but I see both sides and am playing the devils advocate just a bit ... What does everybody else think?

[GundogGuy]

what would be the potentially deadly situations... I 'hunt' with dogs but their job is to find and flush game then retrieve that game once shot...

[Poloplatinum]

For instance boar hunting?

[g10vanna]

I don't think boar hunting with dogs is humane--not to the dogs, and not to the boar either. The dogs are put in a dangerous situation, and the boar may not be not killed quickly. This also has the potential to negatively affect the meat. I have heard that animals who die slowly or are chased for an extended period and experience great fear before they die don't taste as good, because of the hormones released. So why do it? If you're going to hunt, have good aim and a good gun in a caliber big enough to do the job properly. Hunting dogs should be for flushing and retrieving game only.

[nightsrainfall]

Ok, just to push the limits for fun. What do you think about protection work with dogs, hunting work with dogs, drug work with dogs, military work with dogs, and even therapy work with dogs. If you are using humane as a syname for 'nondangerous' for the dog (ie boar hunting is dangerous for the dog because the boar can injure the dog), then aren't these practices above also capable of being inhumane? Protection work is obvious and directly dangerous to the dog. Hunting in general is consistantly sending dogs out into bushes, fields, etc. Even when it's fowl, there is a chance for the dog to be injured. Larger fowl can cause serious damage, as can deer, badgers, and what other animals may be lurking. Drug work may not cause injury as in open wounds, but there's a chance for danger especially illness and damange to senses or the dog's internal system. Now military may be obvious but what about therapy? Therapy work with dogs actually can be extremely stressful to a dog. Some dogs can't do that type of work, and it can cause mental dangers from all that stress and over stimulation from picking up emotions/things from the people they are supposed to be helping...

Humane to me is such a poorly defined word. What's humane to one person, isn't humane for another. What is commonly considered a humane action for one animal (including humans) may be considered unhumane for another animal even if the situation is the same and the animals are biologically similar...

To me, personally, I judge humane on was it considerably thought out and cautiously applied? So basically is it something I would do or reccomend doing myself? Thus all my examples, I consider humane with proper training, experience, and under the right direction I would do them. This is especially true with dogs, because the dog (sometimes) follows although it's going past it's own ability and puting itself in danger (which is also true for some people). So to me, hunting with dogs is humane, given that we have proper training, experience (with other things), and have good direction. If I'm not the one who has the experience, I'll find other resources to be the ones to teach me to gain it. I also always start small and practice.

I don't always know if the actual situations that occur are actually humane, but it's some comfort to me when the people and the dogs are in similar levels of danger. It still may be dangerous, and the dog may do more or the person's life may be considered more important - but at least it seems like more of a partnership, and a responsible careful partnership.

[Poloplatinum]

Just my personal opinion nightsrainfall, I feel that sending a pack of dogs in to fight a boar is a kind of a glorified version of pitbulls fighting against each other for "sport" it just seems wrong. Maybe it is because the boar can be so dangerous compared to a rabbit or a similar hunted creature. I feel like protection dogs are not much better. You have dogs in Iraq and Afghanistan whose job it is to seek out IED's and then sit on them! Doesn't get much dangerous than that... I feel that it is inhumane but a very neccesary job at the same time. I know I'm kind of all over the place in my opinion but I am really completely undecided on which way I feel. You were right about it not being so inhumane when you have practiced the neccesary skills in order to mitigate any risk associated with the activity though. Good point!

[nightsrainfall]

Just my personal opinion nightsrainfall, I feel that sending a pack of dogs in to fight a boar is a kind of a glorified version of pitbulls fighting against each other for "sport" it just seems wrong. Maybe it is because the boar can be so dangerous compared to a rabbit or a similar hunted creature. I feel like protection dogs are not much better. You have dogs in Iraq and Afghanistan whose job it is to seek out IED's and then sit on them! Doesn't get much dangerous than that... I feel that it is inhumane but a very neccesary job at the same time. I know I'm kind of all over the place in my opinion but I am really completely undecided on which way I feel. You were right about it not being so inhumane when you have practiced the neccesary skills in order to mitigate any risk associated with the activity though. Good point!

Sending a pack of dogs after a boar to me is inhumane. Using well trained dogs to find the same areas the boars are in, or to bark and come back when finding a boar and then setting traps for the boars (or something) to me may be humane if done correctly. Seeking out IEDs and then sit on them with no human companion around seems inhumane, coming back or being near by their human seems less inhumane.

Hunting can be done (I believe) such that it reduces the dangers to those hunting and the pain and struggle of those being hunted. Also things don't always go 'correctly' so trying our best with the best true intentions and having practiced, found resources, or training makes things at least seem more ethical. Of course, there's always going to be those situations where ONE person or dog-human team can make it work such that it's humane but that same thing won't work for the rest of us (or for other dogs), or those situations where we don't have a choice (as a human) or the dog goes and does something.

[Poloplatinum]

Agreed. Well put. The PEDD's or SSDD's do have a companion near them at all times. When searching they are sent a safe distance away from the handler to conduct their search. If they find something and responds then the handler will eventually call the dog back.

[jacksdad]

Sending a pack of dogs after a boar to me is inhumane

why? honest question. not playing the other side or anything like that. in thinking about this some more one thought was that it might increase the safety for the dog to hunt with a pack. not sure the effect on the boar. just an undeveloped thought/question.

[Nettle]

Purely for the sake of accuracy, let me describe the different methods of boar hunting with dogs. Let us also understand that boar are hunted primarily as pest control because they do a huge amount of damage to agriculture, forestry and animals (they are omnivores and will eagerly eat other animals). That the hunters enjoy the hunt makes not one scrap of difference to the hunted animal.This is NOT for or against such hunting, merely getting the truth out there.

The term 'man' in this post refers to either gender with the observation that few women can match a man for physical strength, which is the prime driver here.

HISTORICAL

Pig-sticking, as once practised in India as a 'manly' activity for British soldiers and any locals who wanted to be involved. Agricultural damage to subsistence farmers can be the difference between life and death. This type of hunting is probably extinct now, but historically very important.

People on foot with dogs beat out the undergrowth - people on horses carried boar spears, and when the boar was flushed out, they speared it as fast as possible. Horses, dogs and people could get injured. If a boar was injured, the dogs could track it, but an injured boar is desperately dangerous.

Boar-hunting as described from writings in Ancient Greece. People on foot went out with dogs to track and flush the boar from its hideout, and then speared it as it charged them. Boar spears have a crossbar above the blade because the boar even if mortally injured will otherwise struggle up the spear shaft to attack the man. A man on foot tried to wedge the end of his spear against a rock in order to hold the weight of the boar.

Both these methods require an insane amount of courage and cool-headedness.

Mediaeval type hunting where relays of hounds were used to flush and track the boar, hunters followed on foot and horseback, specialist boar-hounds were used as the boar stood at bay to hold it at bay until the hunters could kill it.

TRADITIONAL AND MODERN

Hunting with packs of dogs to flush and hold the boar at bay until the hunter(s) arrive to despatch it by shooting it (some prefer to use a knife). Let us understand that there is a very small vulnerable area to hit with bullet (expanding bullets are needed) or blade, that the boar's hide is very thick, and that it isn't inclined to stand still. Often boar will break the 'bay' or 'bail' as it is known in new Zealand and Australia, sometimes taking out a dog or man in the process. Some dogs will hold a boar by its ears, and if you get one on each ear and one at the tail, plus one at the front baying and eyeballing, this can hold a boar very effectively until help arrives. But if a dog gets too bold or slips up or misses its hold, it is very likely to get injured.

Flushing boar towards waiting Guns, either on the ground or in high seats. Commonly done in Europe. That's okay as long as the boar runs the way you want - they often don't.

There is no method of boar-hunting that requires the dog(s) to kill the boar because there is no dog that can do that, and no dog that should try.

[nightsrainfall]

Thanks for the info Nettle - that's how I thought it was in my head but I didn't have any background or actual knowledge to back it up. (I don't even know where I got what was in my head to begin with, lol)

[Poloplatinum]

Yes. Nettle you are definently the expert on hunting in this forum lol. I really want to get into hunting racoons and small game. I think my tracking background would serve me very well there. . I guess I had a misconception as far as the dogs role in the hunt. The history behind boar hunting is very fascinating though.

[Nettle]

I hunt small game with my dogs, so if you'd like some input on that, we could discuss further. I also go ferreting - someone mentioned that in the other hunting thread - so again if anyone wants to know more about ferreting, we can discuss it.

[Poloplatinum]

Have you ever read the book "where the red fern grows" Nettle. I really hope you have!!!

[wvvdiup1]

Good discussion, Polo!

From my experiences in hunting, especially hunting with dogs, it has been my practice of never put my dogs in any form of danger. If I see the animal I'm hunting for, I'll call my dogs back and leave the animal for another time. As it is natural for humans and dogs to hunt, which seems humans have lost that "art of hunting", if you will, I see it "humane" to hunt for food, but never for sport as that to me is no sport. My philosophy is "if you want to hunt for sport, shoot clay pigeons, but never an animal!" My belief is that when you kill an animal, it lost its life to feed you and your family!