Hunting with dogs

[runlikethewind]

"RLTW you did not hear a hunting horn the other day. There is no hunting in June. And fox cubs are not ambushed and killed in front of their mothers somebody very stupid told you that."

I heard a bugle - so it wasn't a hunt, I know they don't hunt this time of the year. I was just saying it's a chilling sound. It was that sound - maybe some event or someone mucking about.

I don't know what goes in the "August hunt", I've not been there undercover nor officially - but the New Forest is remote and stretches for miles and you can effectively disappear, so it's been described to me what can go on.

I wonder what happens at the August Hunts if the cubs are not killed?

Cubbing AKA "Hound Excerise"
"...Saturday 6th August '11 Hound Exercise & breakfast

[Mattie]

I heard a bugle - so it wasn't a hunt, I know they don't hunt this time of the year. I was just saying it's a chilling sound. It was that sound - maybe some event or someone mucking about.

I love the sound of a hunting horn, it has nothing to do with the hunt. I live in brass band country so maybe that is why.

I don't know what goes in the "August hunt", I've not been there undercover nor officially - but the New Forest is remote and stretches for miles and you can effectively disappear, so it's been described to me what can go on.

So you are going by what you have been told, who told you, people against hunting or for it? You will get different versions, one making it sound really terrible and cruel, the other will say how lovely and enjoyable it is and there is no cruelty. You just take your pick of the versions.

I went and found out about it, I was terrified at first because of what I thought I would see, in fact it was better than any comedy program on the tv and the only animal hurt was one of the hounds who was stepped on by a horse, the rider of the horse was in serious trouble. This wasn't just one occassion, it was every time.

I wonder what happens at the August Hunts if the cubs are not killed?

The hunting season starts on 1st November, before that after a summer break the horses and hounds are gradually brought back into work and the new hounds are trained. Once they reach some fitness they go cubbing, this is were they sort out the healthy foxes from the sick and old ones, instead of chasing them they are killed quickly and humanely by the hounds. Hounds kill very quickly.

Sometimes you will see hounds at a country show, Rockwood Harriers is at Emly show every year, the hounds are really well behaved and can be trusted with other dogs and children. Children are invited into the area to meet the hounds, both children and hounds love it.

Nature is survival of the fittest, as it should be to improve and keep animals fit and healthy, what is happening now with urban foxes is many have mange that is so bad they have very little fur. Mange as you know is terrible for an animal, we sue owners who don't have mange treated but allow foxes to live with it. To me that is really cruel, to live with mange and not have any treatment.

[runlikethewind]

I've seen the hounds at the shows and I've seen how likeable they are.

[Nettle]

I grew up in the New Forest. It is one of my favourite places in the world.

Fox cubs are born in March, sometimes earlier. This year there were cubs in February in the south coast of UK, as there are most years. "Cubhunting" is an unfortunate ancient name for autumn hunting, because the foxes born in the spring are young adults by then, now hunting for themselves, because they mature far earlier than dog puppies. By November they will be sexually mature, and in December/January they will breed. So they are that years 'cubs' but no longer cubs. Their mothers have had nothing to do with them for some time. Therefore they are not killed in front of their mothers and are not little soft fluffy cubs but strong young predators.

In the days when those young foxes were killed in autumn by hounds(foxhunting is illegal now) the death was as quick as a bullet, because a single hound kills with one bite and shake. Foxes weigh between 12lb - 15lb as an average - a hound weighs around 75lb. Foxes are seriously outgunned by hounds, so a quick kill is the norm.

Young foxes are still killed in autumn, but they are shot and snared and trapped.

So - while I have every respect for people not liking hunting, I do want to put the record straight about the nonsense that is talked about it and passed on to people such as yourself in the guise of 'truth' when it is anything but .

Thank you for providing the arena for me to do that.

[emmabeth]

Good thread so far - lets keep it that way

I have heard some UTTER rubbish talked about hunting, and whilst it is unfortunately true to say there ARE some people out there enjoy killing things for the sake of killing them, very very few (none I have met!) of those are to be found within UK field sports.

The fox hunting 'thing' is widely misunderstood - the idea that people race about the countryside desperate to see a fox torn to shreds is indeed horrific, but its also false.

For a start, if you are close enough, on your horse, to see the hound do the deed you are TOO close and liable to be told never to come back again! Getting in amongst the hounds is a huge no-no!

So people do not pay hundreds or even thousands of pounds in subscription fees on the off chance they might see a fox meet its maker.

What they pay for is the chance to ride out regularly across land they would otherwise not get access to, and those fees subsides the hunts other activities - which are pest control (removal of foxes in areas that cant be hunted, rogue animals causing problems), deadstock removal, dispatch of injured animals etc - all of which is provided in usually a faster and cheaper way to locals and landowners than can otherwise be achieved. The hunt also invest money in maintaining the land/fencing across which they hunt.

Purely drag packs tend to cause a lot more damage to the land (although this is a moot point now as all packs are effectively drag hunting) and didnt provide quite such a service and that is why there never were many drag hunts in the uk - of what benefit to the land owner was it? very little!

The other reason drag hunting was not so popular is that it is a much faster activity, requiring a different type of horse and rider and providing a very different experience. I'd quite happily hunt 'normally' but the drag hunting lot are MENTAL - its like comparing a fast hack in the countryside, with flat out top level eventing's cross country phase (or for the none horsey, maybe a sunday afternoon drive, with F1 grand prix!).

So, getting back to my rather rambling point - the people who go out to enjoy hunting do not go out to enjoy something dying, and most will never ever see that. They subsidise the hunt, which funds lots of other activities which are beneficial to the landowners, farmers and local area in general.

Soo... any questions?

[ladybug1802]

I have a freiend who has been fox hunting once, when it was legal, and bdrag hunting once last year...sjhe said there was no difference in the speed.distance/madness of the riders orthe hunt. I agree with you that riders who hunt do not go out purely to see a fox killed, but the fact remains that that was the end result of the hunt....they are chasing a fox across country and eventually, the aim is to kill it. As a rider, i wouldnt want to be part of that.

I do agree that the majority of times the kill would be fast, but that is not taking into account the stress the fox is put through during the actual hunt - being chased across country by hounds and horses trying to excape them. Imagine how stressful that is for the fox.

I do understand the point that nature is survival of the fittest - and that is fair and valid. BUT what is 'natire' about a pack of people on horses and a pack of dogs finding a scent of any fox,, anf chasing it down to kill it. The fox that gets killed may well be fit and healthy, but gets so exhausted by the chase that it is then unable to run fast enough to get away.

I do understand all the points raised by those of you that agree with hunting, but I'm afraid my mind wont ever change! I willm never understand why people would choose fox hunting over drag hunting when essentially the only difference is a lack of fox to kill.

Not sure i put my points across well at all!!

[Nettle]

We need to understand that the fox is not being chased for miles and miles. First the hounds find the scent, then they follow the scent for as long as it takes to get up to the fox. Most fox hunts were over in 20 minutes: you did get the odd longer ones, but they weren't the image of the fox running flat out with hounds a step behind it that non-hunters sometimes have. Hunting by scent involves miles of tracking with the fox nowhere in sight.


Old paintings of fox, hounds and riders all in the same field were artistic licence, otherwise you'd need three paintings - they aren't an accurate representation of what really happened.


My kind of dogs were used in singles and pairs to flush, chase and catch a fox, the entire job being completed in a hundred yards or less. But that is a different kind of hunting and can only take place with a fast dog that can see the fox.

My own experience of mounted hunting (40 ish years) is that draghunting is manic, but live quarry hunting stops and starts as the scent is found and lost and found again - with the odd crazy dash flat out over fences, and then a 'check' as the scent is puzzled out by hounds.

[ladybug1802]

To be honest the thought of galloping across country jumping hedges that werent meant for jumping scares the bejeezus out of me now anyway!! Used to do eventing but now am much happier sticking to dressage where all 4 hooves usually stay near the ground!!

[Nettle]

Scares the bejasus out of me these days, too I don't know where my nerve went: some young creature has it now. I gave up mounted hunting many years ago. I followed on foot for a long time after that because I loved to see hounds working out a scent - it's highly addictive - but they don't do that with trail-hunting, so I seldom go now.

[Mattie]

I have a freiend who has been fox hunting once, when it was legal, and bdrag hunting once last year...sjhe said there was no difference in the speed.distance/madness of the riders orthe hunt.

Your friend is lying, you spend more time standing still while the hounds try to find the scent that racing across country. It this was the case people who go on foot would never be able to keep up, there are a lot of people who go on foot so that they can see the hounds working, that is really facinating to watch. Others on horses often don't bother to race around, they are out for the day and don't want to over tire their horses so they walk behind, having done this myself the field was never far away, in fact we were more often than not with the field.

You are only repeating what someone has told you, you accept her's because you want to believe that but won't accept ours because you don't want to believe it.

I agree with you that riders who hunt do not go out purely to see a fox killed, but the fact remains that that was the end result of the hunt....they are chasing a fox across country and eventually, the aim is to kill it. As a rider, i wouldnt want to be part of that.

Many are not killed, they get away, in fact I have never known one to be killed but did have a very good day out with the hunt. Riders don't chase foxes across country, they are usually well behind and often don't even know where the hounds are. They are there purely to ride across country that they can't normally.

I do agree that the majority of times the kill would be fast, but that is not taking into account the stress the fox is put through during the actual hunt - being chased across country by hounds and horses trying to excape them. Imagine how stressful that is for the fox.

Again you are just repeating what you have been told or read, you don't have any experience just repeating what others have said. What I do think is cruel and not part of nature is the urban foxes who are really suffering with mange and other diseases, many are hit by vehicles and craw away to die in a lot of pain which can take several weeks. Some will get gangrene, now that really is painful and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, even now there is no drugs that can kill the pain, I watched my mum with it, they had her unconscious because of the pain and she still screamed with it. That is what is now happening to foxes because there is no control of them now.

I do understand the point that nature is survival of the fittest - and that is fair and valid. BUT what is 'natire' about a pack of people on horses and a pack of dogs finding a scent of any fox,, anf chasing it down to kill it. The fox that gets killed may well be fit and healthy, but gets so exhausted by the chase that it is then unable to run fast enough to get away.

People and horses don't find a scent of a fox, it is the hounds that do that, again you are just repeating what you have been told and haven't been out to see for yourself. I would much prefer to be hunted down and killed than die the way many urban foxes are dying now, or does that not matter because your "Friend" hasn't told you about it.

I do understand all the points raised by those of you that agree with hunting, but I'm afraid my mind wont ever change! I willm never understand why people would choose fox hunting over drag hunting when essentially the only difference is a lack of fox to kill.

Not sure i put my points across well at all!!

There wasn't any drag hunting near me, in fact until hunting was banned there wasn't many drag hunts, farmers are reluctant to give permission to drag hunts but will to hunts because they help control the foxes which do a lot of damage.

You started this thread to discuss hunting but you have a closed mind and not really interested in seeing another point of view. You have taken the word of someone else without seeing it for yourself and are trying to argue your point which is wrong, you are trying to argue things that don't happen. You should know us well enough now to know that we don't lie not for any reason.

This is the last post I am doing on this because you have a closed mind and won't allow yourself to see and think of another point of view.

[emmabeth]

It is definitely not true that foxhunting takes out fit, healthy foxes due to exhaustion!

For one thing the fox is only actively running to avoid the hunt for a matter of minutes - just as our dogs have their 'safety zone' so do wild animals. For wild animals those safety zones are pretty small, especially a fox who is normally the predator. If this were not the case then every single little noise or scent would terrify the life out of our wildlife and they'd be dropping like flies from shock!

Foxhunting unlike any other method of fox pest control, takes out only the weak, the ill, the old and I'd guess, those too unaware or for want of a better word, 'stupid'. It is these foxes who cause a problem, and only these that need to be taken out of the population.

I agree it isn't natural, but then, neither is snaring, poisoning, trapping, shooting, and none of those are selective for ill/old/weak/stupid the way foxhunting was.

Would you really want what would be 'natural' though - which you could push far enough to suggest we have no farming, and we re-introduce the predator species we have eradicated in the british isles? or even those who became extinct before we showed up.. we could have Wolves, Bears, Lynx, Cave Lions....

That would definitely cut down on the numbers of foxes - but also the numbers of people. Hunting might be a lot fairer and more natural though... (im only being half silly here, I actually think if we had more real predators, us smug humans would re-learn a bit of fear and behave a lot better!)


Its also worth bearing in mind that not all foxhunting with packs of hounds IS done on horseback - some of it is done entirely with foot followed packs.

[ladybug1802]

You started this thread to discuss hunting but you have a closed mind and not really interested in seeing another point of view. You have taken the word of someone else without seeing it for yourself and are trying to argue your point which is wrong, you are trying to argue things that don't happen. You should know us well enough now to know that we don't lie not for any reason.

This is the last post I am doing on this because you have a closed mind and won't allow yourself to see and think of another point of view.

Can I just say Mattie that thank you - I am having a s**t time at the moment and your post has really shocked me so much I have had to read it 3 times and am in tears. Sorry if I dont phrase things in the 'ideal way' but seeing as a close family member has just died its not the most important thing to me to re-read posts. I do not have a closed mind, I was not saying you were lying, I was saying what I think. You guys agree with hunting, I dont. I was keeping my comments light hearted and you have 'attacked me'. I know people have commented on your harsh tone before but I have thought it was unintentional and because they hadnt been on the board long so werent 'regulars'...but your tone has really upset me. I said I understood others point of view....Nettle etc have not attacked me for my different point of view. This week gets better and better. You yourself have said you want people to eb able to express different views...yet because my view is different to yours you have been incredibly rude. I am shocked. Why onjly attack me anyway - I didnt start the thread but there are others who also dont agree with hunting.

Apart from anything else you are being hypocritical.....you are attacking me for 'not taking your opinions into account@ (which is not true) yet are you taking MY opinions into account? You certainly arent respecting them.

[minkee]

I think there's also room to see and understand the validity of the hunt, and still not like it. Ladybug's instinct is that it's just not something she, personally, likes. I think that's allowed :)

[ladybug1802]

Thank you Minkee Thats much appreciated after the last comment aimed at me.

[Nettle]

I have not the slightest intention of trying to make anybody change their mind - I am simply replacing misunderstandings and hearsay with explanations of what really happens/happened.

In the natural world, wild animals die of three things - disease, starvation and predation. Hunting comes under 'predation' with the important exception that it is artificially controlled in order to effect the quickest possible end to the animal's life. So it is as humane as a wild animal's death can be - they don't slip away in bed surrounded by grieving relatives.

Ladybug, I am sorry to hear of your bereavement - I too have lost a dear friend this week - he was within two weeks of my own age.