"Aggressive" Dog

[Nettle]

Nature or nurture.

I don't think there is ever going to be clear cut answer/guide based on these to forces that shape an individual. we all are the sum of our experiences and genetics. where one stops and the other begins will be different for every individual.

I do agree with you that some dogs (and people for that matter) are just born broken. something when wrong at the genetic level and there is (at least at our current science level) no fixing it.

I think in addition to trying to understand the difference between dogs that for whatever reason are "lost causes" (they honestly and truly want to hurt EVERYTHING near them) verses the other wise safe to be around dog unless your it's fear trigger, we need to be open to is the idea that in a well adjusted dog the occasional displays of "aggression" when appropriate are absolutely nothing to worry about. of course this opens the question of what is appropriate?

Which means I think we need to learn the difference between a "lost cause" aggressive dog, a fearful dog and a well adjusted dog who all have the ability to be physically aggressive, but may have VERY different motivational reasons which I think are more important to understand than any physical display.

I agree wholly with these.

As for aggression - as a professional, it's a word I refute at every opportunity. Scaredy dogs aren't aggressive - they are producing a fear response. Prey-driven dogs are not aggressive - they are catching their dinner (you don't feel aggressive towards your dinner as a rule). Dogs that are ill become defensive: dogs attacking ill dogs are merely following their natural instincts. Remove the trigger and those dogs are no longer aggressive.

You DO get very occasional dogs that ARE aggressive in my understanding of the word - but it is relatively rare. Of those, most have been trained, deliberately or accidentally to aggress, and THEN have learned pleasure from it so that aggression becomes the reward.

There are dogs that have the genetic blueprint to attack other dogs and those that have the same to attack people. It's very rare for a dog to show both, though several breeds/types have the potential for it. These are dogs that willingly and eagerly aggress at the first opportunity instead of after all other avenueshave been exhausted, and also need no trigger - they just go for it.

[nightsrainfall]

I agree wholly with these.

As for aggression - as a professional, it's a word I refute at every opportunity. Scaredy dogs aren't aggressive - they are producing a fear response. Prey-driven dogs are not aggressive - they are catching their dinner (you don't feel aggressive towards your dinner as a rule). Dogs that are ill become defensive: dogs attacking ill dogs are merely following their natural instincts. Remove the trigger and those dogs are no longer aggressive.

You DO get very occasional dogs that ARE aggressive in my understanding of the word - but it is relatively rare. Of those, most have been trained, deliberately or accidentally to aggress, and THEN have learned pleasure from it so that aggression becomes the reward.

There are dogs that have the genetic blueprint to attack other dogs and those that have the same to attack people. It's very rare for a dog to show both, though several breeds/types have the potential for it. These are dogs that willingly and eagerly aggress at the first opportunity instead of after all other avenueshave been exhausted, and also need no trigger - they just go for it.

Although I like playing the devil's advocate from time to time, I agree with the above as well.

To me, the combination of the actions we dub as 'aggression' are usually not because the dog is 'aggressive'. They are simply reactions where the cause is Fear or Pain.

I have seen a truly "aggressive" dog. In the shelter they usually are referred to as 'snapped' because like Nettle said, they need NO trigger. There's no fear, no pain, and no change in the environment. Also to me, they are going for the 'Kill' bite - meaning no holding back and they will keep going until the thing is down or dead.

Honestly, I think 'aggression' is generally more of a response than the cause of the behavior. People do it too. I.e. I'm aggressive (I hit, I call others names, I set my jaw) because I'm afraid and don't want people to come near me so I 'm trying to get them to go away. It's not that I'm an aggressive person, it's that I'm scared. Now, if that aggression was not the response to something, but the main cause - then I'm a truly an aggressive person. People can change though, I like to think dogs can too... but I also believe that pure aggression and 'snapping' is possible, in any animal. (Maybe plants too, lol. Poison Oak is pretty vicious!)

[emmabeth]

Ill apologise now for committing a cardinal sin - ive not read all the responses on the thread (cos im knackered and ill forget what i wanted to say!)... so shoot me now!

As I see it/think about it/ponder it...

'Aggression' as it actually is/occurs/exists.... is an option, its a tool in anyones mental toolbox, there ready to be used when we deem necessary (or our instincts do).

So some of our dogs feel it is necessary to use this tool and for whatever reason they now have a tendancy to use the Aggression Tool as a first option, rather than a last option.

All dogs (all animals!) have the ability to use this, you cant remove it and I don't think we should seek to do that, i think that would be futile.

What we do is figure out why, and usually thats fear, and try to remove that fear so the tool need never be used. We can as a part of that, teach (or enable) more appropriate responses, for example my fluffy Ellie dog is learning its ok to use a lower level of aggression to make her point.

Where she would once launch, snarling, teeth first into a big spat over very little, now she can make a fairly polite face and walk away, or she can make a horrid noise and a really rude face, stand her ground but make no contact (thats with the other dogs, lol, not us!) When we first got her she did not have the ability to do that, she had one level of aggression and that was 'full on, gonna take your face off' stuff.

What I think is at the heart of the problem though is the human interpretation of 'aggression' and 'aggressive'. For some reason 'aggressive' has become synonymous with 'bad' and also 'wantonly bad', ie, the dog WANTS to be this way, this is a BAD dog who LIKES being like this, who prefers to do this and sets out to do it.

Its become a label, a dog who has used or will use aggression in a particular situation is now labelled as 'bad' as if that is teh whole story, that is a dog who is BAD always....

So its become a huge deal and people view dogs who will use aggression (as opposed to, tolerate all the dumbass things humans expect dogs to tolerate without question, without objection... grr!) in the same way they would view a human who gets into fights or beats his kids or wife.

Sooo.. I do avoid using the term where possible, because it isnt actually important, and because peoples understanding of the word is rarely what I mean by it - what is crucial is the reasoning behind it, and the route to solving that problem. If you have a scared dog who runs,a nd a scared dog who bites, the common factor is 'scared', not the reaction too 'scared' adn the solution will remain the same in principle (it may differ slightly in the details).

[minkee]

Wonderful answers everyone. I really feel a lot better informed now, thank you!

I was asking because there are a few people I know who think their dogs are 'nasty', and I want to have the whole scaredy dog conversation, but never felt I had a real grip on exactly how to explain it to them, because they're so set in their thinking that their dogs are just mean to some dogs. Infact I think some might even be offended at the idea that their big tough GSD is scared of little dogs, and doesn't just want to gobble them up because she's so rough and tough.

[Mattie]

I have seen a truly "aggressive" dog. In the shelter they usually are referred to as 'snapped' because like Nettle said, they need NO trigger. There's no fear, no pain, and no change in the environment. Also to me, they are going for the 'Kill' bite - meaning no holding back and they will keep going until the thing is down or dead.

This was Gracie when she first came, there didn't seem to be a trigger she just went in for the kill, being small people thought it was funny, I didn't, she tried to kill Joe. It took me 3 months of watching and learning about her to realised that all this was based on fear, once I realised that she never looked back.

Going back a few years a GSD was caught by a Dog Warden by jumping on him, this dog had been running round for some time and nobody could get near him, he bit the Dog Warden and was taken to a pound. His future bleak he had bitten someone. If anyone is interested this is his story: http://www.druidalegsd.karoo.net/shadow.htm Pauline Jackson is very experienced, she used to work at Bishop Burton, one of the colleges that teaches dog behaviour but Shadow was a real challege to her, several times she consisdered having him pts but didn't do it. This shows that even dogs like Shadow has a chance if they get with someone who has the experience to work with him but how many people could? I know I couldn't.