Tiny dogs and toddlers
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Tiny dogs and toddlers
Hi guys! As some of you know I am expecting my first 2 legged baby in July. I have 3 dogs, Jake Jade and Zippy. I have been working with them in the last few months with training and such, and am mostly confident that everything will be ok with dogs and baby. But as the baby gets older I worry about an infant and then toddler with a 7 pound Pomeranian. I know little ones can be pretty rough with animals and I don't plan on leaving them together unattended, but everyone knows things can happen when you are distracted. So my question is this. How do I go about teaching a child that he needs to be super gentle with the dogs (especially the little one) and teach the dogs to be tolerant and gentle with the child?
Re: Tiny dogs and toddlers
This is really more of a management thing than a training thing.
For the dogs - always give them the opportunity to escape, or have them seperated by a babygate so they can see you guys but are not in the middle of everything.
Reward them well for lying down calmly and ignoring the child.
Make sure they are well exercised both physically and mentally - with the best will in the world, when a baby comes along dogs do get neglected because people have much less time. It is going to require a HUGE amount of will power NOT to put the dogs last on the list of priorities but .. people obviously manage with multiple children, so it is possible to consider the dogs as toddlers themselves and make sure they are still included and get the attention they need (because you dont see people shutting a 2 year old in teh basement or yard, or rehoming it when the new baby comes along!) That said most of the multiple child families I know do have the older siblings a bit put out and lacking the dedicated one to one attention they previously had (and then by the time they have baby number three, they are not remotely precious about it and so baby number 3 takes up way less time because no ones fussing about cleaning things so much or not letting it lick the windows, whereas baby number 1 had the parents panicking every second!)
You cant teach small children to be gentle with animals - they lack the ability to empathise and understand concepts like 'I would not like this done to me so i will not do it to others' and that actually lasts WAY longer than toddlerhood. Whilst the beginnings of empathy are there at 2/3 years old, its not 'done' until the child is 7 or 8 or older given we are talking about the concept of non-humans having emotions and feelings.
So again you need a lot of management here, whilst you repeat the messages you want to be learned by your child. Whilst your toddler is not truly and clearly going to understand that 'we don't hit the dog because the dog feels pain, and that is not nice' for quite some time, its a message the child needs to hear repeated often, in conjunction with both not being given the opportunity to do 'whatever' and being swiftly and immediately timed out for doing 'whatever' when it inevitably occurs by accident. (Time outs work GREAT for kids btw!)
Now is also a good time to think abot any little habits you may have with your dogs that you dont want to continue with a child in the house and don't want a child emulating. For instance, kissing dogs in the face - I do it with mine, you probably do it with yours, the difference being that our dogs trust us, we are safe and predictable, and we know when to not do it. A toddler doesnt know these things, in fact, toddlers up to around 6 years old do NOT connect a snarly face with the growl sound as being related and from the animal, AND they translate that snarly face as a happy smile! Explains just why a lot of kids get bitten in the face!
For the dogs - always give them the opportunity to escape, or have them seperated by a babygate so they can see you guys but are not in the middle of everything.
Reward them well for lying down calmly and ignoring the child.
Make sure they are well exercised both physically and mentally - with the best will in the world, when a baby comes along dogs do get neglected because people have much less time. It is going to require a HUGE amount of will power NOT to put the dogs last on the list of priorities but .. people obviously manage with multiple children, so it is possible to consider the dogs as toddlers themselves and make sure they are still included and get the attention they need (because you dont see people shutting a 2 year old in teh basement or yard, or rehoming it when the new baby comes along!) That said most of the multiple child families I know do have the older siblings a bit put out and lacking the dedicated one to one attention they previously had (and then by the time they have baby number three, they are not remotely precious about it and so baby number 3 takes up way less time because no ones fussing about cleaning things so much or not letting it lick the windows, whereas baby number 1 had the parents panicking every second!)
You cant teach small children to be gentle with animals - they lack the ability to empathise and understand concepts like 'I would not like this done to me so i will not do it to others' and that actually lasts WAY longer than toddlerhood. Whilst the beginnings of empathy are there at 2/3 years old, its not 'done' until the child is 7 or 8 or older given we are talking about the concept of non-humans having emotions and feelings.
So again you need a lot of management here, whilst you repeat the messages you want to be learned by your child. Whilst your toddler is not truly and clearly going to understand that 'we don't hit the dog because the dog feels pain, and that is not nice' for quite some time, its a message the child needs to hear repeated often, in conjunction with both not being given the opportunity to do 'whatever' and being swiftly and immediately timed out for doing 'whatever' when it inevitably occurs by accident. (Time outs work GREAT for kids btw!)
Now is also a good time to think abot any little habits you may have with your dogs that you dont want to continue with a child in the house and don't want a child emulating. For instance, kissing dogs in the face - I do it with mine, you probably do it with yours, the difference being that our dogs trust us, we are safe and predictable, and we know when to not do it. A toddler doesnt know these things, in fact, toddlers up to around 6 years old do NOT connect a snarly face with the growl sound as being related and from the animal, AND they translate that snarly face as a happy smile! Explains just why a lot of kids get bitten in the face!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Tiny dogs and toddlers
Right from the start as my babies started to move round, crawling at first, my dog had a safe place to go and my baby wasn't allowed to go near him, I done the same with my grandchildren which didn't go down very well with their parents but it was my house, my rules, my dogs. The babies and children soon learnt, pity their parents didn't learn as quickly.
A baby/child and dog on my knee was normal, I never attempted to teach my children to stroke my dog gently nor my dog to accept my children stroking them, to me that was far too much to ask of either of them. very young children or babies are not developed enough to understand, they already have a lot to learn without this. I don't think it is fair to a dog to expect them to put up with a very small child trying to learn "how to be gentle", small hands can pull the dog's fur without realising it. It is cruel to let a child poke at a dog's eyes, nose and ears.
All my dogs have played with my children, one dog used to be the "Fielder" when they were playing cricket, he would run and get the ball for them and take it back. Another would play ring a ring of roses with them, all my dogs loved my children's toys. All my dogs used to love to go down a slide with my children and race them back up to the top.
Your dogs will have a lot of fun with your baby once he/she is older, it isn't necessary to force the dog to tollerate a baby touching them. Many dogs are very frightened of a child crawling because they are unpredictable, by trying to force a dog to tollerate a child at this age to touch them is cruel, they are terrified of it.
I never left my children in a room alone with my dog, I took my child with me, I had a feeding chair in the kitchen were I could put my child in if I couldn't put him on the floor. When my children were eating, anything that went on the floor was the dog's and not the child's. I never shut my dog out in another room, my dog was free to follow me or do their own thing.
As my sons got older they developed a very strong bond with the dog, I used to love to see them playing together and as they grew older they would all go down the woods to play, I knew they would be safe with Sam. Many times Bill had to go looking for them all, children and dog, because they hadn't arrived home for tea, the children would come back on the back seat, the dog in the boot because she had been in stagnant water. She loved water.
Don't expect too much from your baby and your dogs.
A baby/child and dog on my knee was normal, I never attempted to teach my children to stroke my dog gently nor my dog to accept my children stroking them, to me that was far too much to ask of either of them. very young children or babies are not developed enough to understand, they already have a lot to learn without this. I don't think it is fair to a dog to expect them to put up with a very small child trying to learn "how to be gentle", small hands can pull the dog's fur without realising it. It is cruel to let a child poke at a dog's eyes, nose and ears.
All my dogs have played with my children, one dog used to be the "Fielder" when they were playing cricket, he would run and get the ball for them and take it back. Another would play ring a ring of roses with them, all my dogs loved my children's toys. All my dogs used to love to go down a slide with my children and race them back up to the top.
Your dogs will have a lot of fun with your baby once he/she is older, it isn't necessary to force the dog to tollerate a baby touching them. Many dogs are very frightened of a child crawling because they are unpredictable, by trying to force a dog to tollerate a child at this age to touch them is cruel, they are terrified of it.
I never left my children in a room alone with my dog, I took my child with me, I had a feeding chair in the kitchen were I could put my child in if I couldn't put him on the floor. When my children were eating, anything that went on the floor was the dog's and not the child's. I never shut my dog out in another room, my dog was free to follow me or do their own thing.
As my sons got older they developed a very strong bond with the dog, I used to love to see them playing together and as they grew older they would all go down the woods to play, I knew they would be safe with Sam. Many times Bill had to go looking for them all, children and dog, because they hadn't arrived home for tea, the children would come back on the back seat, the dog in the boot because she had been in stagnant water. She loved water.
Don't expect too much from your baby and your dogs.
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Re: Tiny dogs and toddlers
Thanks ladies! Im just so nervous with all of this and scared I'm gonna do soemthing wrong. I only have 2 months left and its really starting to hit me how much I am not ready!
I know that itwill be several years before I can leave the dogs alone with the baby, well he won't be a baby by then, but.. I will have a pack and play in the living room that the baby can be in when I have to leave the room, like to take one of the other dogs out, that the other 2 dogs won't be able to get into. I don't have a fenced in yard so I have to take them out one at a time on a leash. If I try to take them out together someone always ends up getting peed on
So basically I need to have a "safe" room for the dogs that the baby can't get to so they can retreat and make sure they are exercised and played with and just go from there?
I understand what you mean about it not being right to expect a dog to tolerate a baby and your right. I hadn't thought about it that way. I guess its more that the child has to learn to respect the dogs than expecting the dogs to tolerate what the baby is doing.
Im sure I will have lots more questions along the way for you guys. See I already thought of one... Jake barks when he needs to go out and will wait for a few mins and then gets obnoxious about it, in your face and loud. It doesn't get to that point often b/c I generally just take him out when he says he needs to go. Well if I am feedign the baby and he decides he needs to go out and my hubby isn''t home to take him, I can't just stop feeding the baby and take him out. Is there a way I can get train us to allow me a few extra mins between him asking and having to take him? I will prob try to take him out before I start feeding the baby to avoid this problem, but sometimes he has to go again in a few mins, for whatever reason. I think he does that sometimes just to mess with me.
I know that itwill be several years before I can leave the dogs alone with the baby, well he won't be a baby by then, but.. I will have a pack and play in the living room that the baby can be in when I have to leave the room, like to take one of the other dogs out, that the other 2 dogs won't be able to get into. I don't have a fenced in yard so I have to take them out one at a time on a leash. If I try to take them out together someone always ends up getting peed on
So basically I need to have a "safe" room for the dogs that the baby can't get to so they can retreat and make sure they are exercised and played with and just go from there?
I understand what you mean about it not being right to expect a dog to tolerate a baby and your right. I hadn't thought about it that way. I guess its more that the child has to learn to respect the dogs than expecting the dogs to tolerate what the baby is doing.
Im sure I will have lots more questions along the way for you guys. See I already thought of one... Jake barks when he needs to go out and will wait for a few mins and then gets obnoxious about it, in your face and loud. It doesn't get to that point often b/c I generally just take him out when he says he needs to go. Well if I am feedign the baby and he decides he needs to go out and my hubby isn''t home to take him, I can't just stop feeding the baby and take him out. Is there a way I can get train us to allow me a few extra mins between him asking and having to take him? I will prob try to take him out before I start feeding the baby to avoid this problem, but sometimes he has to go again in a few mins, for whatever reason. I think he does that sometimes just to mess with me.
Re: Tiny dogs and toddlers
Of course you feel you are not ready, your hormones are all over the place, you are probably more ready than you think but worrying about it is wasting time when you can be doing something.Desiree wrote:Thanks ladies! Im just so nervous with all of this and scared I'm gonna do soemthing wrong. I only have 2 months left and its really starting to hit me how much I am not ready!
Your baby can go into the dog room when you or your husband are there, baby gates are wonderful things for babies as well as dog, the problem is some dogs can jump over them and children learn how to open them as they get older, you just need to be away of your child learning how to open the gates but that won't be for some time.So basically I need to have a "safe" room for the dogs that the baby can't get to so they can retreat and make sure they are exercised and played with and just go from there?
It isn't that difficult to get a child to respect dogs if you start from the beginning, my dogs all had a safe place to go to, my children were not allowed to go near them when the dog was there. Both dogs and children soon learnt this because I enforced it from the beginning.I understand what you mean about it not being right to expect a dog to tolerate a baby and your right. I hadn't thought about it that way. I guess its more that the child has to learn to respect the dogs than expecting the dogs to tolerate what the baby is doing.
Easy peasy, you will learn to continue to feed your baby and move round your house doing what you can with one hand, it is easier to do this if you breastfeed than bottle feed because you have to hold the bottle as well. It does get more difficult as your baby gets heavier but don't do what a lot of people do, leave the baby with a bottle, they can choke, if you can't let Jake out he will just have to wait, babies quickly adapt to dogs barking and mainly ignore them. My sons used to sleep through all sorts of loud noises because I never turned anything down. Babies have to learn to live in our lives, the quicker they learn this the easier it is on them and us. I used to know people who turned everything down when their baby was asleep, they were still doing this when their baby was 8 years old because she hadn't learnt how to sleep through noise.Im sure I will have lots more questions along the way for you guys. See I already thought of one... Jake barks when he needs to go out and will wait for a few mins and then gets obnoxious about it, in your face and loud. It doesn't get to that point often b/c I generally just take him out when he says he needs to go. Well if I am feedign the baby and he decides he needs to go out and my hubby isn''t home to take him, I can't just stop feeding the baby and take him out. Is there a way I can get train us to allow me a few extra mins between him asking and having to take him? I will prob try to take him out before I start feeding the baby to avoid this problem, but sometimes he has to go again in a few mins, for whatever reason. I think he does that sometimes just to mess with me.
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Re: Tiny dogs and toddlers
Im sure this baby is already quite used to hearing the dogs bark That will be a good thing though. My house is never quiet so its good for him to be used to it right off the bat.
I have to share this with you guys. I am on an online birthboard and one the ladies was asking about having both her 3 dogs and the baby sleep in the bed with her. Now, my dogs sleep in bed with me and will continue to do so, but the baby will be in a bassinet and then a crib. Most people were just disgusted by the fact that her dogs even slept in the bed at all. I don't understand that. Don't alot of people let their dogs sleep in the bed with them? I mean these ladies were talking like dogs are just so dirty and how they make their dogs sleep in the laundry room or whatever. But really if your dog is an indoor dog that just goes out to pee and for walks they don't get that dirty. I mean mine get brushed daily and bathed every month or so and I use the pet wet wipes in between just to keep them fresh, or for touch ups. I really don't think they put any more dirt in my bed than I do. Am I wrong here or just don't see it?
Also one of the ladies was talking about the dog needs to see the baby as a pack leader. To me, even if you go for the whole pack leader thing, how can a baby who can't interact with a dog in a manner a dog can understand be seen as a leader? Until the baby is old enough to give direction or or commands like sit or no or down, how can they be a leader? Until then they are just a member of the pack. I don't know but it seemed crazy to me. As far as the dogs and baby in the bed together, I kind of figure my dogs have enough change coming without me kicking them out of the bed. The baby can just as easily be next to the bed and safe and everyone can be happy. I think kicking them out even now would just cause more headache then what its worth. I know it could be done, but I kinda like having them cuddled up with me at night. Keeps me from being lonely when my hubbys at work.
That will be a good thing though. My house is never quiet so its good for him to be used to it right off the bat.I have to share this with you guys. I am on an online birthboard and one the ladies was asking about having both her 3 dogs and the baby sleep in the bed with her. Now, my dogs sleep in bed with me and will continue to do so, but the baby will be in a bassinet and then a crib. Most people were just disgusted by the fact that her dogs even slept in the bed at all. I don't understand that. Don't alot of people let their dogs sleep in the bed with them? I mean these ladies were talking like dogs are just so dirty and how they make their dogs sleep in the laundry room or whatever. But really if your dog is an indoor dog that just goes out to pee and for walks they don't get that dirty. I mean mine get brushed daily and bathed every month or so and I use the pet wet wipes in between just to keep them fresh, or for touch ups. I really don't think they put any more dirt in my bed than I do. Am I wrong here or just don't see it?
Also one of the ladies was talking about the dog needs to see the baby as a pack leader. To me, even if you go for the whole pack leader thing, how can a baby who can't interact with a dog in a manner a dog can understand be seen as a leader? Until the baby is old enough to give direction or or commands like sit or no or down, how can they be a leader? Until then they are just a member of the pack. I don't know but it seemed crazy to me. As far as the dogs and baby in the bed together, I kind of figure my dogs have enough change coming without me kicking them out of the bed. The baby can just as easily be next to the bed and safe and everyone can be happy. I think kicking them out even now would just cause more headache then what its worth. I know it could be done, but I kinda like having them cuddled up with me at night. Keeps me from being lonely when my hubbys at work.
Re: Tiny dogs and toddlers
Yep you are seeing that some people talk rubbish.
On the whole a dog is marginally dirtier than a human, but not much! I think its fairly obvious that there are risks to having a baby in the bed iwth the dogs at the same time, but what you are proposing seems sensible to me, as long as sthe dogs are happy with that and cannot or will not fling themselves into the basinette (one of my would, he would think thats an AWESOME place to sleep, MINE and get right in there!).
Try to come up wtih a routine that builds in baby time with dog time - I appreciate theres little chance that your baby is going to fall in line wtih this routine..... but by doing so before baby comes along it gets you in the habit, and you can always tweak the routine a little once the baby arrives.
So many people dont do this, then when the baby arrives they have no routine idea at all and so the dog gets pushed out - an element of that is always likely because all your hormones are screaming BABY BABY BABY IGNORE THE REST OF THE WORLD BABY..... but if you alreayd have that habit, its easier to get back to it.
YOu are lucky ive just had a crash course in babies from my friend who has a 9 month old girl - she also has animals and her number 1 recommendation is to breastfeed. Forget that its cheaper, or better for the baby, the two major sellign poitns for it for HER were that a/ she lost her baby weight really quickly and b/ she can get on doing things around the house whilst feeding now (and has been able to ever since her daughter had some control over her head/neck).
If she were bottle feeding shed have less tiem for the animals (and herself) because shed be faffing with bottles and formula and would have to sit still for every single feed.
The other reason to push yourself and get your partner to push yourself into a routine and stick to it, even though its the LAST thing you want to do in the early days, is that the newborn stage to crawling stage is the time you have the MOST time to do things. Once the baby is crawling and grabbing things you really are stuffed and you have next to no chance of easily forming a routine then because you can't take your eyes off them for a minute!
On the whole a dog is marginally dirtier than a human, but not much! I think its fairly obvious that there are risks to having a baby in the bed iwth the dogs at the same time, but what you are proposing seems sensible to me, as long as sthe dogs are happy with that and cannot or will not fling themselves into the basinette (one of my would, he would think thats an AWESOME place to sleep, MINE and get right in there!).
Try to come up wtih a routine that builds in baby time with dog time - I appreciate theres little chance that your baby is going to fall in line wtih this routine..... but by doing so before baby comes along it gets you in the habit, and you can always tweak the routine a little once the baby arrives.
So many people dont do this, then when the baby arrives they have no routine idea at all and so the dog gets pushed out - an element of that is always likely because all your hormones are screaming BABY BABY BABY IGNORE THE REST OF THE WORLD BABY..... but if you alreayd have that habit, its easier to get back to it.
YOu are lucky ive just had a crash course in babies from my friend who has a 9 month old girl - she also has animals and her number 1 recommendation is to breastfeed. Forget that its cheaper, or better for the baby, the two major sellign poitns for it for HER were that a/ she lost her baby weight really quickly and b/ she can get on doing things around the house whilst feeding now (and has been able to ever since her daughter had some control over her head/neck).
If she were bottle feeding shed have less tiem for the animals (and herself) because shed be faffing with bottles and formula and would have to sit still for every single feed.
The other reason to push yourself and get your partner to push yourself into a routine and stick to it, even though its the LAST thing you want to do in the early days, is that the newborn stage to crawling stage is the time you have the MOST time to do things. Once the baby is crawling and grabbing things you really are stuffed and you have next to no chance of easily forming a routine then because you can't take your eyes off them for a minute!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Tiny dogs and toddlers
Ooops, m ean to say you have sussed the hooey this pack leader thing is too, no WAY can a dog see a baby as being higher status than he is, no way. Dogs view and treat babies with a little fear and sometimes, as if they were puppies, because thats all a dog CAN do, thats allt hey have the skills for. If a dog is happy with baby animals they will treat them as if they were a puppy no matter what species pretty much - the scary part is if they are not happy or comfortable, some dogs will also treat them as prey or 'toys' which is why we have to be careful.
It is pretty easy to eliminate the risk of the latter by never leaving a baby with a dog unsupervised, and also not acting so precious around the baby that the dog is wound up and thinks 'what HAVE you got there, thats special that must be the BEST toy ever' which unfortunately alot of people do (ie, squealing and whiskin the baby out of dogs sniffing range repeatedly until he is SO desperate to see he grabs at the baby!).
It is pretty easy to eliminate the risk of the latter by never leaving a baby with a dog unsupervised, and also not acting so precious around the baby that the dog is wound up and thinks 'what HAVE you got there, thats special that must be the BEST toy ever' which unfortunately alot of people do (ie, squealing and whiskin the baby out of dogs sniffing range repeatedly until he is SO desperate to see he grabs at the baby!).
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Tiny dogs and toddlers
It is dangerous to have a young baby in bed with you, if you fall asleep you can roll onto the baby and sufercate it without you knowing, so many babies are killed like that. If you roll over onto a dog they quickly tell you, a baby can't.
I sat on the edge of the bed when feeding mine, you do get really tired at first and one night I was sitting up in bed feeding my baby when I nodded off, thankfully I was sitting up so my baby was safe.
You can teach your dogs to help you with your baby, they can fetch things for you like nappy sacks, talk, cream etc. this will help make them feel they are not being pushed out.
I sat on the edge of the bed when feeding mine, you do get really tired at first and one night I was sitting up in bed feeding my baby when I nodded off, thankfully I was sitting up so my baby was safe.
You can teach your dogs to help you with your baby, they can fetch things for you like nappy sacks, talk, cream etc. this will help make them feel they are not being pushed out.
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Re: Tiny dogs and toddlers
I am soooo imagining teaching the dogs to fetch a diaper That would be great, and handy too! I am planning on breastfeeding, for all of the reasons that were listed. But also b/c having the baby in a bassinet next to the bed I can grab him and kind of stay propped up in bed while feeding. I think after the first couple of times the dogs won't even pay attention to that. They pretty much ignored it when I was nebulizing Darla and cleaning her in the middle of the night and I had to turn the light on and make a bunch of noise. I think once they figure out Im not getting up and they aren't going anywhere, they will be fine.
Glad to know I have learned some things from this forum. Like the pack leader thing with the baby. I read that and just couldn't see how that person could think a dog could see a baby like that.
Jake is unhappy with me now as my belly has gotten too big for him to curl up on, and he can't lay in front of it on the couch either as there is no room Now he tries to lay below my belly and rest his head on it. Zippy, being so tiny, just climbs the mountian that I have become and perches right up there. Only 6 weeks left, thank goodness.
That would be great, and handy too! I am planning on breastfeeding, for all of the reasons that were listed. But also b/c having the baby in a bassinet next to the bed I can grab him and kind of stay propped up in bed while feeding. I think after the first couple of times the dogs won't even pay attention to that. They pretty much ignored it when I was nebulizing Darla and cleaning her in the middle of the night and I had to turn the light on and make a bunch of noise. I think once they figure out Im not getting up and they aren't going anywhere, they will be fine. Glad to know I have learned some things from this forum. Like the pack leader thing with the baby. I read that and just couldn't see how that person could think a dog could see a baby like that.
Jake is unhappy with me now as my belly has gotten too big for him to curl up on, and he can't lay in front of it on the couch either as there is no room
Now he tries to lay below my belly and rest his head on it. Zippy, being so tiny, just climbs the mountian that I have become and perches right up there. Only 6 weeks left, thank goodness.