Kill Shelter question

[OhioRuthie]

I guess this is the best area for this question...I've been working with rescue by pulling dogs/puppies from a small high kill shelter. I was just informed they gassed a pit without giving her a chance. There is a lot of uproar over the use of gas by this shelter. Does anyone know much about it...is it painful? Someone compared it to people comitting suicide in their car with exhaust fumes. It just doesn't sound humane to me and I was wondering if anyone had the fact on this method. Is it just a cheaper way for them?

[nightsrainfall]

I did a paper on "humane" ways of killing from people to livestock, both on the science and "ethics" a long time ago so some of this might be out of date... But, It really depends on how it's done on if it's "humane" or not. You are going to need to know how the gas was administered, the flow rate, and the gas composition. I really don't want to actually get into it, solely because it's a very controversial topic and rightly so.

You can use gas to kill such that the creature will lose consciousness slowly OR you can use gas to kill such that they suffocate to death (similar to drowning). It depends on the composition, chemicals, flow rate, etc. The main problem with gas is sometimes it's not all that affective because some animals might have a slight resistance to it and that the whole "gas chamber" situation is not the best (to put it nicely).

I would be careful with the word "humane" and ask for people's definitions or expectations of it. Sometimes we chose a method as being humane or ethical not because of the actual technicalities but because of how well it sits with us and current day culture/practices. I.E. Putting down a cow by a shot to the head is humane put putting down a dog by a shot to the head is often considered inhumane. And boiling the creature to death is acceptable too, if it's a lobster... :-/

Yeah... I could get into humane and killing more, but I rather not. It's a very touchy and opinion based topic.

[OhioRuthie]

Thanks Anna...the one they use is very small..I haven't seen it but it sounds like one dog at a time but not sure.
Thanks again for your info.

[Nettle]

I don't know what gas they use, but I know a pest controller who accidentally gave himself a whiff of cyanide gas and the first he knew was waking up in hospital. Never felt a thing.

[wvvdiup1]

Someone mentioned here that it depends on the gas they use. According to what was happening in the state of Alabama, they were seeing animals choke, whine, having what appears to be "epileptic seizures", and doing anything they could do to escape the gas chamber, among naming a few things. Apparently, there is some pain and torture in this procedure. Fortunately, Alabama has just banned the gas chamber in use of euthanizing animals from rescue/animal shelters, along with some other states.

[OhioRuthie]

Thanks for the responses sounds like this shelter needs to make some changes!

[wvvdiup1]

You're welcome, OhioRuthie!

[nightsrainfall]

Someone mentioned here that it depends on the gas they use. According to what was happening in the state of Alabama, they were seeing animals choke, whine, having what appears to be "epileptic seizures", and doing anything they could do to escape the gas chamber, among naming a few things. Apparently, there is some pain and torture in this procedure. Fortunately, Alabama has just banned the gas chamber in use of euthanizing animals from rescue/animal shelters, along with some other states.

Ok, brief version... if you use a gas like carbon dioxide and then a high flow rate in the chamber, what you do is displace all the oxygen before the animal is unconscious. It's kind of like holding the animal underwater - it can't breathe because there's no oxygen-rich air to breathe so they suffocate/drown and sometimes go into seizures/twitches. If you use a gas mixture that has an anesthetics and a lower flow rate, or something like carbon monoxide, lower percent of carbon dioxide, gas mixtures, you will not notice it, your brain will slow down, you feel no pain, and well... you don't wake up. (Why carbon monoxide is dangerous.) The second method takes more time though, and if you don't follow it through you end up with problems because well it was a slow death so there are parts of the brain/body that had started dying (true for most hazardous gases).

P.S.
I swear I'm a good person! I just decided to research death once upon a time, lol!

[emmabeth]

As Nightsrainfall says, it depends on a lot of things including what gas/gas mix, the flow rate, the size/design of the chamber etc etc.

I use co2 to euthanise mice which I feed to my snakes.

I put them into a tub that has an exhaust tube on the top, this is because co2 sinks, its heavier than air, so you need to push the air up, out of the tub.

Then I slow trickle in a little bit of co2 until the mice are unconcious - i have a clear tub so i can see and adjust the flow rate carefully - I know when i get this right because they gradually stop eatingt heir food and lie down. Theres no reaching up to get at the air or struggling and they don't even stop eating (adn its just normal mouse food in there, its not some super tasty stuff to distract them so if tehy were stressed they'd stop straight away).

Then when they are lying down, not trying to move or eat or stretch up (ie unconcious, but their eyes are still open so its hard to tell!), I whack the flow rate up so they die quite quickly. I know if i got it wrong as they will have nosebleeds, though this is slightly less 'important' as they are out cold and as far as i am aware (and the paperwork ive read) they don't know about it.

Done too fast they struggle, panic because they can feel the lack of oxygen as they are awake whilst its all gone. Whilstt hey can still breathe and its not the same sensation as being suffocated or drowned (when you CANT breathe!), its pretty horrible because acid builds up in the lungs which hurts and the effects of no oxygen on the brain are happening whilst they are concious.

I would guess the same applies to dogs, and given I have personal experience ofthis method, I think if its done with just co2 for dogs I would not personally be happy with that method. (I v much suspect it ISNT just co2 for dogs though!).

[wvvdiup1]

Nightsrainfall wrote:

wvvdiup1 wrote:
Someone mentioned here that it depends on the gas they use. According to what was happening in the state of Alabama, they were seeing animals choke, whine, having what appears to be "epileptic seizures", and doing anything they could do to escape the gas chamber, among naming a few things. Apparently, there is some pain and torture in this procedure. Fortunately, Alabama has just banned the gas chamber in use of euthanizing animals from rescue/animal shelters, along with some other states.


Ok, brief version... if you use a gas like carbon dioxide and then a high flow rate in the chamber, what you do is displace all the oxygen before the animal is unconscious. It's kind of like holding the animal underwater - it can't breathe because there's no oxygen-rich air to breathe so they suffocate/drown and sometimes go into seizures/twitches. If you use a gas mixture that has an anesthetics and a lower flow rate, or something like carbon monoxide, lower percent of carbon dioxide, gas mixtures, you will not notice it, your brain will slow down, you feel no pain, and well... you don't wake up. (Why carbon monoxide is dangerous.) The second method takes more time though, and if you don't follow it through you end up with problems because well it was a slow death so there are parts of the brain/body that had started dying (true for most hazardous gases).

That's why I said it depends on the gas that is used; not every state uses/used the same gas(es)!

By the way nightsrainfall, why did you "just decided to research death once upon a time?" I had to study "death" (to make this a short subject title) in my criminal classes in college and that included going accident scenes, morgues, or wherever bodies are found (short of funeral homes and cemeteries), write about our experiences, and then speak before the class about each of our experiences. Yeah, try staying composed, while at the same time, keeping your lunch in your stomach! Oh, before I forget to tell you, I don't know how many times I've awaken from my sleep, thinking I'm laying on a metal table at a morgue!

[OhioRuthie]

I asked a person who works there and they said the dogs sometimes howl when the oxygen starts to fade so it sounds like its the painful kind. I'm taking on the local vet emergency room...long story short one of my rescue pups had parvo and was vomiting blood..I didn't have the type of payment they accept so they let him vomit blood in my car for over two hours while I found someone who could give the payment over the phone...hard to do with a new cell and no one programmed in yet. In the end he was euthanized because I didn't have 1500.00 to give them at midnight saturday/sunday. So I'm at war with them. I could have gotten the money from a local pound puppy charity but not at that moment and they didn't care. Will have to check into how to change the way this pound euthanzies the dogs and see if we can't get a movement started to make that change.

Thanks for all the insights...the person did say they use to gas as a group but there would be dog fights so they have a small gas chamber now...they need to be rid of it altogether. They only charge seventeen dollars to pull a dog that's probably why its so cheap to rescue it doesn't cost them much to run it.....

[nightsrainfall]

That's why I said it depends on the gas that is used; not every state uses/used the same gas(es)!

By the way nightsrainfall, why did you "just decided to research death once upon a time?" I had to study "death" (to make this a short subject title) in my criminal classes in college and that included going accident scenes, morgues, or wherever bodies are found (short of funeral homes and cemeteries), write about our experiences, and then speak before the class about each of our experiences. Yeah, try staying composed, while at the same time, keeping your lunch in your stomach! Oh, before I forget to tell you, I don't know how many times I've awaken from my sleep, thinking I'm laying on a metal table at a morgue!

Sorry, I was just trying to explain how you can produce a painless death or a more violent one just through flow rates themselves.

I've always been interested in 'ethics' so we had to do a controversial paper on a subject. I picked death, because in humans its illegal assisted suicide, else stopping the machines and for animals it depends on how attached we are to the animal. Because of the paper, I ended up also researching concentration camps and wars, and so all my dreams involved body pits for awhile or emergency vehicle vans that pumped the exhaust into the back to kill the passengers. (So creepy). Or past ways we killed animals (also creepy if it was livestock). Luckily I didn't have to do a presentation on it, I'm sure some people in my class would not have appreciated that!

[wvvdiup1]

No need to apologize, Nightsrainfall! I was curious as how or why you decided to study "death." As I've said in my last post, I had to it as part as class requirement and I haven't forgotten any of it. Maybe that's why I've had nightmares waking up on a steel table in a morgue. Unfortunately, there are many ways to die but only one way to live.

[OhioRuthie]

Bringing this up again because I have sent my state representative a proposal for him to draft a bill to ban gassing of animals in Ohio. I'm waiting for his decision his assistant said he has been reviewing my proposal...so I hope to hear something from him soon. I worry because this is his last term and don't know if he will use that as an excuse not to get involved...my fingers are crossed to hear good news soon!

[Nettle]

make sure that there are no loopholes for putting something less good in its place.