Hello, I'm new on here - I spotted someone had mentioned one of my blogs elsewhere and stumbled upon this forum.
I've just blogged about the latest child fatality and would be interested in hearing your comments.
And Victoria - if you do have a peep at your forum, hello! Hope you and yours had a good Xmas.
Best wishes
Beverley Cuddy
Editor, Dogs Today Magazine
http://coldwetnose.blogspot.com/2007/12 ... -dies.html
Rottweiler and baby incident
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
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beverleyDogsToday
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Rottweiler and baby incident
Check out my blog: http://www.coldwetnose.blogspot.com/
Thinking of buying a dog?:
http://www.dialadog.co.uk - for excellent advice
Thinking of buying a dog?:
http://www.dialadog.co.uk - for excellent advice
I don't think we have enough information to comment on this, I live at Wakefield and am horrified, but there are a lot of ifs and buts here and we probably will never know.
I don't like the hype that the media is encouraging, on the BBC site it lists dog attacks over some months but they have concentrated on the bull breeds and not fluffy pets have been mentioned. This is giving a false sense of security to dog owners, many will think that because they don't have one of these breeds it can't happen to them, they are wrong.
Another problem round here is the lack of positive trainers, some call them selves positive but they are not. One in particular does a lot of damage to dog and many do turn aggressive. It is due to this that I have been thinking about starting up.
I don't like the hype that the media is encouraging, on the BBC site it lists dog attacks over some months but they have concentrated on the bull breeds and not fluffy pets have been mentioned. This is giving a false sense of security to dog owners, many will think that because they don't have one of these breeds it can't happen to them, they are wrong.
Another problem round here is the lack of positive trainers, some call them selves positive but they are not. One in particular does a lot of damage to dog and many do turn aggressive. It is due to this that I have been thinking about starting up.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
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katowaggytail
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:37 am
Hi, interesting article.
Not wishing to distract from the point that another defenceless child has died, and my thoughts are with the family.
When I heard the news I thought... here we go again, another Christmas witch hunt on dog breeds and owners...
I'm not sure what the answer is... but we definately need some kind of measures to ensure the right dog goes with the right owner and family.
As readers here will know I rescued a 4 yr old Rhodesian Ridgeback , another on the Goverment hitlist - he was through the rescue but at Battersea and I went through hoops to get him. Questions were asked of me and my family by both organistations. My experiences with larger dogs, my household etc etc the list was endless; and before I even got him I reseacrched the breed for 6 months - talking to breeders, owners etc and then waited for 6 months for a pooch to come up and then.... another month to get him for the kennels!
Did these people think what kind of dog they were getting? It's too easy to get a dog. Would a licence fee help? I really don't know. Should ALL dogs be muzzled when out? I really don't know. I just feel so sad that it has happened yet again, at Christmas.
All of us that use this forum do so to help our dogs, because we care in their welfare and health.
Sorry for the ramble, but I feel sometimes so helpless when I read stories like this - (I have signed the Deed not Breed), but I fear the Goverment will knee jerk again.
Not wishing to distract from the point that another defenceless child has died, and my thoughts are with the family.
When I heard the news I thought... here we go again, another Christmas witch hunt on dog breeds and owners...
I'm not sure what the answer is... but we definately need some kind of measures to ensure the right dog goes with the right owner and family.
As readers here will know I rescued a 4 yr old Rhodesian Ridgeback , another on the Goverment hitlist - he was through the rescue but at Battersea and I went through hoops to get him. Questions were asked of me and my family by both organistations. My experiences with larger dogs, my household etc etc the list was endless; and before I even got him I reseacrched the breed for 6 months - talking to breeders, owners etc and then waited for 6 months for a pooch to come up and then.... another month to get him for the kennels!
Did these people think what kind of dog they were getting? It's too easy to get a dog. Would a licence fee help? I really don't know. Should ALL dogs be muzzled when out? I really don't know. I just feel so sad that it has happened yet again, at Christmas.
All of us that use this forum do so to help our dogs, because we care in their welfare and health.
Sorry for the ramble, but I feel sometimes so helpless when I read stories like this - (I have signed the Deed not Breed), but I fear the Goverment will knee jerk again.
Dear Heaven.
As has been said, we'll never know the whole story.
I for one (despite the ages of the people involved and the implications in this case) believe that small children/babies and dogs of any sort do not mix, except under very careful supervision from responsible dog-aware people.
Not too many of those about.
As has been said, we'll never know the whole story.
I for one (despite the ages of the people involved and the implications in this case) believe that small children/babies and dogs of any sort do not mix, except under very careful supervision from responsible dog-aware people.
Not too many of those about.
One of my dogs should never have been rehomed to me because of my circumstances. I had a very disabled husband who couldn't do anything for himself, I was a carer for 24 hours a day.
I also had 3 other dogs there were well behaved and well trained but when I took Bonnie in, she was a wirlwind, never stopping just bouncing off the walls. She had been confined to a crate for 8 weeks, both her back legs were broken when she was dragged under a vehicle.
Before saying I would like her I asked if she had Collie in her, was told no, I knew I didn't have the time to take on a Collie cross. It was quite hectic at the rescue with hubby and 3 other dogs but hubby fell for her so she came home. When I got her home, the penny dropped, she was a Collie/Lab. I phoned as asked why I wasn't told she had collie in her and was told that I wouldn't have taken her if I knew but once she was home with me she wouldn't go back.
Thankfully I knew enough about Collies to know what I was taking on, but it wasn't easy, in fact it was really difficult until Tilly arrived. This little girl could easily gone to someone who didn't have the knowledge and made a very different dog, could even been aggressive.
It isn't always the owner's fault, although most times it is.
I also had 3 other dogs there were well behaved and well trained but when I took Bonnie in, she was a wirlwind, never stopping just bouncing off the walls. She had been confined to a crate for 8 weeks, both her back legs were broken when she was dragged under a vehicle.
Before saying I would like her I asked if she had Collie in her, was told no, I knew I didn't have the time to take on a Collie cross. It was quite hectic at the rescue with hubby and 3 other dogs but hubby fell for her so she came home. When I got her home, the penny dropped, she was a Collie/Lab. I phoned as asked why I wasn't told she had collie in her and was told that I wouldn't have taken her if I knew but once she was home with me she wouldn't go back.
Thankfully I knew enough about Collies to know what I was taking on, but it wasn't easy, in fact it was really difficult until Tilly arrived. This little girl could easily gone to someone who didn't have the knowledge and made a very different dog, could even been aggressive.
It isn't always the owner's fault, although most times it is.
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Ocelot0411
- Posts: 593
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 7:30 am
A dreadful story no doubt about it and as many of you have already said its difficult to say much unless you know all of the facts, which of course we don't.
I would however strongly agree with the dogs and children under very close supervision, or apart altogether. The other thing that springs to mind though is that they only had this dog six months, as I think you were trying to say Mattie, could this be a case of a bad rehome, i.e. new owners not given all the facts? Perhaps even the rescue centre didn't know about the dogs history?
I would however strongly agree with the dogs and children under very close supervision, or apart altogether. The other thing that springs to mind though is that they only had this dog six months, as I think you were trying to say Mattie, could this be a case of a bad rehome, i.e. new owners not given all the facts? Perhaps even the rescue centre didn't know about the dogs history?
There isn't a decent rescue centre round here, the nearest is at Barnsley and that is a very small one. There is a lot of dogs for rehoming in the free magazines all the time.
Some of the stories I have had from people who got a behaviourist out are horendous, one lady got one out to a Staffy that she had just got and he was aggressive to other dogs. This behaviourist brough 5 Border Collies with her, let them all run into the house and attack this Staffy. Of course the Staffy reacted and she was told he was too aggressive and to pts him. Thankfully these owners were quite sensible and decided to just manage him instead. I met them out on a walk and stopped her from racing the dog off and we had a good talk. Within minutes, this dog who wanted to kill mine was sitting at her feet totally relaxed. No pressure was put on him at all and I kept my dogs well back.
Some of the stories I have had from people who got a behaviourist out are horendous, one lady got one out to a Staffy that she had just got and he was aggressive to other dogs. This behaviourist brough 5 Border Collies with her, let them all run into the house and attack this Staffy. Of course the Staffy reacted and she was told he was too aggressive and to pts him.
Thankfully these owners were quite sensible and decided to just manage him instead. I met them out on a walk and stopped her from racing the dog off and we had a good talk. Within minutes, this dog who wanted to kill mine was sitting at her feet totally relaxed. No pressure was put on him at all and I kept my dogs well back.[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
My views are rather strong on this..
Someone IS responsible, and that someone is not a dog. How can a dog be held responsible for the actions or lack of, of humans?
Its gone so far BEYOND ridiculous - we have huge great big brains, we can do quantum physics, fly to the moon, carry out brain surgery, build enormous machines...... and yet we cannot figure out that a dog needs to be trained, socialised, kept appropriately according to its needs... and we put the blame for accidents WE cause through our own stupidty.. on a dog.
What a thoroughly pathetic race we are!
The adult responsible for those children is responsible, as is the adult responsible for buying, failing to train and keeping that dog in an unsafe environment.
THere should be no question of that!
We do all make mistakes, but a 'mistake' is your child tipping hot coffee down itself, a mistake is a toddler tripping up and bashing its head whilst walking to nursery..
A mistake is NOT owning a dog intentionally caused to be dangerous, then leaving a baby with someone not fit to look after it, and then the child dying. Thats more than 'a mistake'.
Caydee-Lee Deacon, Ellie Lawrenson and this little boy, all died because of not one single mistake, but a massive collection of stupid, ignorant, irresponsible decisions, both on the parts of the owners of the dogs and on the part of the parents/legal guardian.
So, maybe I am cruelly harsh, but I think there needs to be very VERY real consequences, both to leaving children in danger, and to owning dogs intended to be dangerous/aggressive.
There already ARE laws about such things - there are laws around keeping and using guard dogs (both this dog and the two that killed Caydee-Lee fall foul of those laws). There are laws about keeping dogs and training them to fight, the dog that killed Ellie Lawrenson was kept breaking those laws.
And yet what consequences are there for these people? None it would seem.
Shoot me now, for I am not a parent and perhaps that means I dont have the right to say this.
Being devastated at the loss of a child is NOT sufficient punishment, in my eyes, for making the long series of irresponsible decisions that lead to that childs death.
Someone IS responsible, and that someone is not a dog. How can a dog be held responsible for the actions or lack of, of humans?
Its gone so far BEYOND ridiculous - we have huge great big brains, we can do quantum physics, fly to the moon, carry out brain surgery, build enormous machines...... and yet we cannot figure out that a dog needs to be trained, socialised, kept appropriately according to its needs... and we put the blame for accidents WE cause through our own stupidty.. on a dog.
What a thoroughly pathetic race we are!
The adult responsible for those children is responsible, as is the adult responsible for buying, failing to train and keeping that dog in an unsafe environment.
THere should be no question of that!
We do all make mistakes, but a 'mistake' is your child tipping hot coffee down itself, a mistake is a toddler tripping up and bashing its head whilst walking to nursery..
A mistake is NOT owning a dog intentionally caused to be dangerous, then leaving a baby with someone not fit to look after it, and then the child dying. Thats more than 'a mistake'.
Caydee-Lee Deacon, Ellie Lawrenson and this little boy, all died because of not one single mistake, but a massive collection of stupid, ignorant, irresponsible decisions, both on the parts of the owners of the dogs and on the part of the parents/legal guardian.
So, maybe I am cruelly harsh, but I think there needs to be very VERY real consequences, both to leaving children in danger, and to owning dogs intended to be dangerous/aggressive.
There already ARE laws about such things - there are laws around keeping and using guard dogs (both this dog and the two that killed Caydee-Lee fall foul of those laws). There are laws about keeping dogs and training them to fight, the dog that killed Ellie Lawrenson was kept breaking those laws.
And yet what consequences are there for these people? None it would seem.
Shoot me now, for I am not a parent and perhaps that means I dont have the right to say this.
Being devastated at the loss of a child is NOT sufficient punishment, in my eyes, for making the long series of irresponsible decisions that lead to that childs death.
Im new too 
The children should not have been alone with a dog. These incidents happen over and over again and dogs and certain breeds take the brunt for it, but people still leave their children unattended with dogs. Just like they run the hot water in the bath first then go answer the phone, leave pills about, cables dangling from kitchen units, speed on the road, drink drive..the list is endless
Its seems many people only learn from their own mistakes not others...
All dogs are a risk, they are an animal with the ability to inflict serious injury or kill. It takes a responsible owner to avoid these situations and a responsible parent where children are involved. Many people have an emotional attachment to their pets and can not accept their dog may be dangerous or aggressive and do not see the danger signs.
I remember locally to me there was a dog bit off a childs nose. The story said the dog was great with kids, but the child was holding an ice cream. Nobody said what the dog was like around food! How many people have food aggresive dogs in the home and then allow them to wander off lead around public parks full of children and ice cream and burger vans I wonder.
Jane
The children should not have been alone with a dog. These incidents happen over and over again and dogs and certain breeds take the brunt for it, but people still leave their children unattended with dogs. Just like they run the hot water in the bath first then go answer the phone, leave pills about, cables dangling from kitchen units, speed on the road, drink drive..the list is endless
Its seems many people only learn from their own mistakes not others...
All dogs are a risk, they are an animal with the ability to inflict serious injury or kill. It takes a responsible owner to avoid these situations and a responsible parent where children are involved. Many people have an emotional attachment to their pets and can not accept their dog may be dangerous or aggressive and do not see the danger signs.
I remember locally to me there was a dog bit off a childs nose. The story said the dog was great with kids, but the child was holding an ice cream. Nobody said what the dog was like around food! How many people have food aggresive dogs in the home and then allow them to wander off lead around public parks full of children and ice cream and burger vans I wonder.
Jane
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Ocelot0411
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- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 7:30 am
No Em come on tell us what you really think......emmabeth wrote:A mistake is NOT owning a dog intentionally caused to be dangerous, then leaving a baby with someone not fit to look after it, and then the child dying. Thats more than 'a mistake'.
There already ARE laws about such things - there are laws around keeping and using guard dogs (both this dog and the two that killed Caydee-Lee fall foul of those laws). There are laws about keeping dogs and training them to fight, the dog that killed Ellie Lawrenson was kept breaking those laws.
Never one to mince words eh?Seriously though, you seem to know a lot more about this than I do judging from your post. I have looked on the web but failed to find anymore than I had already seen which was very vague indeed, no real detail about the dog. Do I take it this dog had been trained as a guard dog then?
I haven't seen much information on the dog apart from them only having her for 6 months. She is supposed to live outside in their yard but supposed to be well socialised with the family, children as well. There is a 7ft wall round the yard as well so the dog can't get out.
It isn't illegal to leave a child or dog with someone who is 16 years old, unfortunately she was upstairs at the time when the 7 year old was carrying the baby, taking him outside to stroke the dog. 7 year old girls love carrying babies round and I suspect that this has happened before only this time the dog got the baby out of her arms.
Going back several years, a girl used to play with her dog by throwing a ball on a rope, can't remember the type but it was one of the big dogs. This girl had long hair and one day it was in 2 plaits. It is assumed that the dog thought the plaits were the ball on a rope and jumped up on the girl. Not sure if the girl died or was seriously hurt. The dog was pts because it was aggressive.
It isn't illegal to leave a child or dog with someone who is 16 years old, unfortunately she was upstairs at the time when the 7 year old was carrying the baby, taking him outside to stroke the dog. 7 year old girls love carrying babies round and I suspect that this has happened before only this time the dog got the baby out of her arms.
Going back several years, a girl used to play with her dog by throwing a ball on a rope, can't remember the type but it was one of the big dogs. This girl had long hair and one day it was in 2 plaits. It is assumed that the dog thought the plaits were the ball on a rope and jumped up on the girl. Not sure if the girl died or was seriously hurt. The dog was pts because it was aggressive.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
There isnt much information out there about this most recent tragedy.
What is known is the age of the dog, that she had only been there 6 months, apparently the neighbours are refuting the claim that she was a 'family pet' and say that actually she was aggressive (though whether she actually was, or if she was untrained, constantly barking or crying who knows).
This dog was one of millions of dogs kept for the purpose of guarding, whilst there is no hard proof of that it seems very likely. People get certain breeds, and think that keeping them in the back yard, untrained and often caused to be aggressive = 'guard dog' - there are laws about guard dogs and having them loose on a property is not permitted. To have a guard dog you must have a licence and that dog must be handled at all times.
The dogs that killed Caydee-Lee, the 5 month old baby in Leicester who was killed by two rotties, they were kept as guard dogs, for the sole purpose of protecting the pub and intimidating people. Again, illegal guard dogs, and then they and the child were left in the care of people not fully understanding of how to deal with the dogs.
The case I know the best is obviously that of Ellie Lawrenson - she was left by her parents with her grandmother, Jackie Simpson who had previous convictions for drug dealing and drug use. These are facts Ellies parents were totally aware of.
Jackie Simpson lived with her son Kiel, who owned a pitbull type dog - this dog had a history of dangerous behaviour and had previously attacked another, older child.
Yet in full possession of these facts, Ellies parents left her in what seems to me, a clearly risky situation.
Kiel Simpson served a few weeks of his prison sentence, which was for owning an illegal breed. Neither he, nor his mother, nor Ellie's parents were found guilty of any negligence.. and yet they made those decisions, fully aware of the dogs previous history, fully aware in the case of Ellies parents that the Grandmother wasnt exactly fit to take care of a child.
The people I feel sorry for, beyond the children who have died and the dogs whose miserable lives are cut short due to them being of the same breeds as the dogs in these cases..
Are the 16 year old and the 7 year old CHILDREN who will now live with this for the rest of their lives.
Surely, if not for the child that died, but for these two innocent kids, blame needs to be laid at the door of those who actually deserve it, the legal adults responsible for the care of the children AND the dog (and note i dont actually say parent because the parent of this baby is legally a child herself!).
What is known is the age of the dog, that she had only been there 6 months, apparently the neighbours are refuting the claim that she was a 'family pet' and say that actually she was aggressive (though whether she actually was, or if she was untrained, constantly barking or crying who knows).
This dog was one of millions of dogs kept for the purpose of guarding, whilst there is no hard proof of that it seems very likely. People get certain breeds, and think that keeping them in the back yard, untrained and often caused to be aggressive = 'guard dog' - there are laws about guard dogs and having them loose on a property is not permitted. To have a guard dog you must have a licence and that dog must be handled at all times.
The dogs that killed Caydee-Lee, the 5 month old baby in Leicester who was killed by two rotties, they were kept as guard dogs, for the sole purpose of protecting the pub and intimidating people. Again, illegal guard dogs, and then they and the child were left in the care of people not fully understanding of how to deal with the dogs.
The case I know the best is obviously that of Ellie Lawrenson - she was left by her parents with her grandmother, Jackie Simpson who had previous convictions for drug dealing and drug use. These are facts Ellies parents were totally aware of.
Jackie Simpson lived with her son Kiel, who owned a pitbull type dog - this dog had a history of dangerous behaviour and had previously attacked another, older child.
Yet in full possession of these facts, Ellies parents left her in what seems to me, a clearly risky situation.
Kiel Simpson served a few weeks of his prison sentence, which was for owning an illegal breed. Neither he, nor his mother, nor Ellie's parents were found guilty of any negligence.. and yet they made those decisions, fully aware of the dogs previous history, fully aware in the case of Ellies parents that the Grandmother wasnt exactly fit to take care of a child.
The people I feel sorry for, beyond the children who have died and the dogs whose miserable lives are cut short due to them being of the same breeds as the dogs in these cases..
Are the 16 year old and the 7 year old CHILDREN who will now live with this for the rest of their lives.
Surely, if not for the child that died, but for these two innocent kids, blame needs to be laid at the door of those who actually deserve it, the legal adults responsible for the care of the children AND the dog (and note i dont actually say parent because the parent of this baby is legally a child herself!).
Victoria has written an article in The Sun newspaper (UK) which appeared on New Year's Day. Link to the article here:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 636837.ece
Also, following last year's tragic attack on Ellie Lawrenson, Victoria wrote the following piece which she feels is still relevant:
http://www.victoriastilwell.com/dda-01_10_07
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 636837.ece
Also, following last year's tragic attack on Ellie Lawrenson, Victoria wrote the following piece which she feels is still relevant:
http://www.victoriastilwell.com/dda-01_10_07
BoardHost
Well i cannot believe that anyone with half a brain would let a 7 year old child carry a baby round to see a dog that noone truely knew anything about.
It amazes me that in this day and age, with all the publicity about our so called dangerous dogs, that this 16 year old would allow this young child to go round and see this dog in the first place.
I know we should all feel desperatly sorry for the family, and believe me i do, but please god, tell me why anyone would of allowed this to happen in the first place!
I am fed up of hearing all the hype about Rotty's this and Pitty's that. It makes me so angry.
None of us really and truely can say that they can trust ANY dog 110% and noone can honestly truely say that thier dog doesnt bite, all we can say is that we have trained our dogs and looked after our dogs and done the best we can possibly can to ensure that this sort of tradgedy doesnt happen with our dogs.
I am the PROUD owner of a large dog, an AB and untill very recently also a Bullterrier. Both of these breeds need a very firm upbringing, this does not mean that i have thrashed my dogs when they have done something wrong... i tend to find bribary and corruption work better
... it means that i have more will power than them, and i have done my research into the breeds of dog i have chosen. I have trained them myself, as i have done with all my dogs I have ever owned. I am in no way a trainer, and do not profess to be, but I do believe i have done well. I have full controll over my dog, at all times, and have full recall when out in the park. i also make a piont of putting her bcak on her lead when other dogs or children come near. Not because I have any fear she will attack, but out of common curtacy to others. All of my dogs have been family pets, and raised with children. My children have also been raised with large breed dogs, and have allways been taught that they should have nothing but respect for dogs, and they are NOT A TOY to pull and push about if and when they fancy.
I get fed up of hearing about certain breeds of dog being a danger, when clearly we only have certain breeds of human that are!
BAN THE DEED NOT THE BREED
BSL = Bull Sh1t Legislation
It amazes me that in this day and age, with all the publicity about our so called dangerous dogs, that this 16 year old would allow this young child to go round and see this dog in the first place.
I know we should all feel desperatly sorry for the family, and believe me i do, but please god, tell me why anyone would of allowed this to happen in the first place!
I am fed up of hearing all the hype about Rotty's this and Pitty's that. It makes me so angry.
None of us really and truely can say that they can trust ANY dog 110% and noone can honestly truely say that thier dog doesnt bite, all we can say is that we have trained our dogs and looked after our dogs and done the best we can possibly can to ensure that this sort of tradgedy doesnt happen with our dogs.
I am the PROUD owner of a large dog, an AB and untill very recently also a Bullterrier. Both of these breeds need a very firm upbringing, this does not mean that i have thrashed my dogs when they have done something wrong... i tend to find bribary and corruption work better
... it means that i have more will power than them, and i have done my research into the breeds of dog i have chosen. I have trained them myself, as i have done with all my dogs I have ever owned. I am in no way a trainer, and do not profess to be, but I do believe i have done well. I have full controll over my dog, at all times, and have full recall when out in the park. i also make a piont of putting her bcak on her lead when other dogs or children come near. Not because I have any fear she will attack, but out of common curtacy to others. All of my dogs have been family pets, and raised with children. My children have also been raised with large breed dogs, and have allways been taught that they should have nothing but respect for dogs, and they are NOT A TOY to pull and push about if and when they fancy.I get fed up of hearing about certain breeds of dog being a danger, when clearly we only have certain breeds of human that are!
BAN THE DEED NOT THE BREED
BSL = Bull Sh1t Legislation
