behavioral peeing

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heydeej
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:31 pm

behavioral peeing

Post by heydeej »

What do I do with a foster dog that seems to have an attitude problem? If he is told "no", is not given attention upon demand, or other such things he is "mad" about, then he pees on the floor. I know dogs aren't vindictive and don't get "mad" but he looks at me deliberately and lifts that leg. He doesn't go hide to do it. It's like he is saying "ok then, there you go".
If I say "no!" and snatch him up to go outside, he sometimes keeps on peeing and it trails all the way to the door. This leads me to think its not just marking.
He is walked regularly, as well has having time in the yard. At least once a day, we go on a 20-30 min walk thru the neigborhood. I have seen him pee (not mark) in the yard and then come in and in less than an hour pee on the floor if I won't do something he wants. (maybe this is where the term "pissed off" comes from... :wink: )

The person who surrendered him to the rescue said he was housebroken. His first foster home had no trouble with him, but said he was too energetic for their older chihuahuas. He looks to be a beagle/corgi mix, and he is about a year old. He lived in a boarding kennel for a few weeks before a home opened up for fostering.

I keep him tethered to me now, so I can catch him mid-lift and take him out. Somehow, though, I don't think this is enough...
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Mattie
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by Mattie »

There are many reasons why your foster dog does this, if you go to viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6125 it will give you an idea of how to retrain him to be clean in the house.

I would also have a full vet check done with bloods to make sure there isn't a health problem.

Please can you give us a run down of his normal day, food, exercise, training etc. we love long posts.
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heydeej
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by heydeej »

per the foster mom:
We have been to the vet and know that it is not medical. I believe it to be behavioral because he will have just peed outside when he will hike his leg and pee out the side of the crate. As soon as I clean it up and walk away, he will do it again. and then again. After our morning 3 block walk, he will poop and pee while I am in the shower. He is crated while I am at work, but as soon as I get home he is let out into the fenced yard while I settle in. He will NOT have peed in the crate or out the side of it while I was at work. He only does it when I am home. He is a very naughty boy...
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Mattie
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by Mattie »

No he is not a naughty boy, he is a stressed dog doing what stressed dogs do. I am pleased there isn't a health problem but you haven't give us a run down of his normal day. Please include exercise, what type, food, what type and how often, training, how often and what type, play,what type etc. We can only help you if we have a lot of information, we can't see what he is doing we need you to tell us.

Have you done as I suggested by retraining him to toilet outside? This is normal when you take a dog on, many have to be retrained for this when they move into a new home.
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heydeej
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by heydeej »

Yes, we did the potty training routine. He was leashed to my side for the first 2 weeks, but it became apparrent that he understood the potty thing, so I stopped.
Every morning, 5am, I open his crate and we go out with me saying "let's go outside! Wanna go potty? Let's go outside and potty?" to reinforce the connection of "outside
" and "potty", and then as we are out there I watch him do his business and praise him. This is repeated everytime it is time to go out. Still, even after a long standing pee, he will come in and pee on the floor while I shower.
I will type more details later, out of time right now...
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Mattie
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by Mattie »

For the dog's sake I am going to try and reply with what you have given us, you are concerned about this which is why you have come on here asking questions, if I get things wrong it is because I don't have the information I really need to help you better.
heydeej wrote:What do I do with a foster dog that seems to have an attitude problem? If he is told "no", is not given attention upon demand, or other such things he is "mad" about, then he pees on the floor. I know dogs aren't vindictive and don't get "mad" but he looks at me deliberately and lifts that leg. He doesn't go hide to do it. It's like he is saying "ok then, there you go".
He is a dog, he only understands dog language not English, he is a different species to us, he have to teach our babies and children to understand and speak English but expect dogs to know it. As I don't know how much exercise he has or what breed, I have to be very general.

Exercise is very important, it gets rid of excess energy and helps get rid of stress, your foster dog is very stressed, as you can pick him up I suspect he is a small dog, most small dogs need a lot of exercise both physical and mental, clicker training often helps stressed dogs as well as mind games. His physical exercise can be broken up into 2 or 3 times a day which may help, if he is a terrier he will need a lot of physcal exercise, about 2 hours a day as well as mental stimulation.

If you have a look at the clips in this thread viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2959 it may help you understand your dog's body language and what he is trying to tell you, the more you can read his body language the easier it will be to understand what he is doing.

He isn't mad, he is picking up on your body language, he knows you are angry/upset but doesn't know why, the more you get like this the more he pees out of anxiety and stress, he can't help it, you can by changing your body language, it is difficult but can be done. Try pretending to be angry, take a good look at your body, it is tense, very stiff, and you may seem to grow taller. Now relax and smile, your body has now relaxed and is soft and loose. When he pees on the floor, try smiling, if your body language is soft and relaxed, the chances of him pees is very greatly reduced but it may take a little time for him to destress enough.
If I say "no!" and snatch him up to go outside, he sometimes keeps on peeing and it trails all the way to the door. This leads me to think its not just marking.
This must be terrfying for him which is why he continues to pee all the way out, it isn't marking but sounds more like stress, anxiety and fear. He may have in the past before you got him been punished for this which will make your job more difficult.
He is walked regularly, as well has having time in the yard. At least once a day, we go on a 20-30 min walk thru the neigborhood. I have seen him pee (not mark) in the yard and then come in and in less than an hour pee on the floor if I won't do something he wants. (maybe this is where the term "pissed off" comes from... :wink: )
That isn't enough exercise, he needs a lot more especially if he is a terrier which have been bred to go all day when working, 20-30 minutes is not nearly long enough. Having the right amount of exercise will help his stress levels. You can put up an agility course in your yard to help with the exercise, you can make jumps out of anything, also give him things to run through, under and over.
The person who surrendered him to the rescue said he was housebroken. His first foster home had no trouble with him, but said he was too energetic for their older chihuahuas. He looks to be a beagle/corgi mix, and he is about a year old. He lived in a boarding kennel for a few weeks before a home opened up for fostering.
Sorry I missed what breeds he was, Beagles like Terriers are bred to run all day, often in the mountains, there is a pack of Beagles not far from me were they hunt on the Pennines which is very rough, mountainous land, they have to be able to run all day when hunting, corgis are also working dogs, they herd cows.

Very few people tell the truth when they surrender a dog in case the dog won't be accepted so I would disregard what his owner said. He may have been more relaxed with other dogs there, I understand about a dog being too energetic for other dogs in the home, I am having to deal with that now.I have to watch my dogs all the time so I can step in and stop Cyril when he is getting too rough for my girls.
I keep him tethered to me now, so I can catch him mid-lift and take him out. Somehow, though, I don't think this is enough...
That won't work, he is already peeing, you need to have him outside before he starts to pee, he isn't learning not to pee in the house but when he pees he is scooped up and rushed outside, no wonder he is so stressed, that must really be frightening for him. Try and see this from his point of view, he is peeing and suddenly he is in the air and rushing outside, it would terrify me.

The best way is viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6125, it does work, it is how I train my dogs, with a one year old I would take him outside every hour, don't leave it to 3 or 4 minutes past the hour at first, it must be on the hour. He will soon learn that he has to pee outside. You will see a pattern developing of when he pees and poos, you will then be able to adapt taking him outside to suit his pattern. There is no need to stay out for a long time, I normally do approx 5 minutes before coming in, when he does go lots and lots of reward, let him know just how pleased you are.

What may help is some Rescue Remedy in his drinking water, just a few drops will do, he has been through a lot, first he is taken away from everything he knows and put into solitary confinement at kennels, then he goes into a home and has to learn the house rules and get to know some strange people and dogs. He is then moved to you, another strange person with new house rules, no wonder he is confused and stressed. The Rescue Remedy will help him through this.
Every morning, 5am, I open his crate and we go out with me saying "let's go outside! Wanna go potty? Let's go outside and potty?" to reinforce the connection of "outside
" and "potty", and then as we are out there I watch him do his business and praise him. This is repeated everytime it is time to go out. Still, even after a long standing pee, he will come in and pee on the floor while I shower.
Try being low key when he first goes out each morning, reinforcing it can come later, it is more important that he goes outside. When praising him you really need to be over the top with this, he needs to think it is the best thing since sliced bread, be happy and party in your praise. Don't take him back in as soon as he has toileted, wait, walk round a little, give him about 5 minutes so he can amble round and relax, let him sniff were he wants to, he probably has a double pee, doesn't empty his tank with the first one which is why he comes in and does another. I get this from my dogs at times which is why I leave the door open for them to go back out but my dogs are completely housetrained, until they were I stayed out with them. When I first got Cyril in January I had to let him toilet on the grass, he was too weak to **** his leg, he was emanciated when I got him, so would pee like a b itch, it splashed his legs and he didn't like that. He can **** his leg without any trouble now and will go on the patio.
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heydeej
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by heydeej »

I have been working with this foster home and stopping in to view the behaviors and help with training. What I am seeing is not a fearful dog. When he looks at you and pees, it's not a fearful or submission pee. We will be standing in the kitchen talking, and he will approach me and try to hump my leg. I will brush him off and turn around or walk away, casually and without even addressing him. After a couple of attempts, he will stand in the middle of the room and give one bark. When we look at him, he will lift a leg and pee. I have tried taking him out to the yard as soon as he starts the humping attempts, and I walk about the yard with him and praise him when he goes. We will walk around together for awhile and when he goes to the gate, I will take him back inside where he will still try to hump and will do his defiant-appearing pee.
The foster mom takes him on the short walk in the morning, but in the evening it is a longer walk. Usually 30 min, or more if the weather is warm. He also has dogs to play with in her house, so it's not like he has nothing to do all evening. He gets plenty of yard time in addition to the time out to eliminate.
We all agree that he is a VERY high energy dog. Foster mom says no matter what she does, she can't wear him out. We stand and look at her treadmill and think...hmmmm, but have not resorted to that yet.
I think Rescue Remedy is an excellent idea for this dog. If we can curb his enthusiasm, he may do better in the home. At least until we can find a triathlete to place him with.
heydeej
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:31 pm

Re: behavioral peeing

Post by heydeej »

heydeej wrote:I have been working with this foster home and stopping in to view the behaviors and help with training. What I am seeing is not a fearful dog. When he looks at you and pees, it's not a fearful or submission pee. We will be standing in the kitchen talking, and he will approach me and try to hump my leg. I will brush him off and turn around or walk away, casually and without even addressing him. After a couple of attempts, he will stand in the middle of the room and give one bark. When we look at him, he will lift a leg and pee. I have tried taking him out to the yard as soon as he starts the humping attempts, and I walk about the yard with him and praise him when he goes. We will walk around together for awhile and when he goes to the gate, I will take him back inside where he will still try to hump and will do his defiant-appearing pee.
The foster mom takes him on the short walk in the morning, but in the evening it is a longer walk. Usually 30 min, or more if the weather is warm. He also has dogs to play with in her house, so it's not like he has nothing to do all evening. He gets plenty of yard time in addition to the time out to eliminate.
We all agree that he is a VERY high energy dog. Foster mom says no matter what she does, she can't wear him out. We stand and look at her treadmill and think...hmmmm, but have not resorted to that yet.
I think Rescue Remedy is an excellent idea for this dog. If we can curb his enthusiasm, he may do better in the home. At least until we can find a triathlete to place him with.
I just did some research on Rescue Remedy. Do you have personal experience that it works?
Our review demonstrates that the currently available evidence indicates that BFRs are not more efficacious than a placebo intervention for psychological problems but are probably safe. (Bach Flower Remedies for psychological problems and pain: a systematic review,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez)
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Mattie
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by Mattie »

heydeej wrote:I have been working with this foster home and stopping in to view the behaviors and help with training. What I am seeing is not a fearful dog. When he looks at you and pees, it's not a fearful or submission pee. We will be standing in the kitchen talking, and he will approach me and try to hump my leg. I will brush him off and turn around or walk away, casually and without even addressing him. After a couple of attempts, he will stand in the middle of the room and give one bark. When we look at him, he will lift a leg and pee. I have tried taking him out to the yard as soon as he starts the humping attempts, and I walk about the yard with him and praise him when he goes. We will walk around together for awhile and when he goes to the gate, I will take him back inside where he will still try to hump and will do his defiant-appearing pee.
So you don't have the dog, we are getting all this second hand, we can only go on what we are told, up to now you haven't answered all the questions we have asked for more information, we don't know what breed he is or how old, WE NEED INFORMATION. Until I get more information I am not prepared to give any more advice, the wrong advice can be dangerous.

HUMING CAN BE STRESS

PEEING CAN BE STRESS, WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING TO US IS STRESS but then it is second hand information.

Very few breeds are happy with this little exercise especially high energy dogs. This dogs needs are not being met and until we get information we can't help.
I just did some research on Rescue Remedy. Do you have personal experience that it works?
It helped me get through my late husband's funeral so yes I do have personal experience of Rescue Remedy, it also helped my dogs when I moved house, as my dogs are all rescues and had fear problems which comes back when something like this happens, yes it helped my dogs.

Like all alternative therapies it won't help everyone or every animal but will most, but then neither does the drugs we get off our doctors or vets, and they don't do the damage drugs do.
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heydeej
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by heydeej »

heydeej wrote:What do I do with a foster dog that seems to have an attitude problem? If he is told "no", is not given attention upon demand, or other such things he is "mad" about, then he pees on the floor. I know dogs aren't vindictive and don't get "mad" but he looks at me deliberately and lifts that leg. He doesn't go hide to do it. It's like he is saying "ok then, there you go".
If I say "no!" and snatch him up to go outside, he sometimes keeps on peeing and it trails all the way to the door. This leads me to think its not just marking.
He is walked regularly, as well has having time in the yard. At least once a day, we go on a 20-30 min walk thru the neigborhood. I have seen him pee (not mark) in the yard and then come in and in less than an hour pee on the floor if I won't do something he wants. (maybe this is where the term "pissed off" comes from... :wink: )

The person who surrendered him to the rescue said he was housebroken. His first foster home had no trouble with him, but said he was too energetic for their older chihuahuas. He looks to be a beagle/corgi mix, and he is about a year old. He lived in a boarding kennel for a few weeks before a home opened up for fostering.

I keep him tethered to me now, so I can catch him mid-lift and take him out. Somehow, though, I don't think this is enough...
I told his breed in the original post, copied above. What other questions do you have?
Yes the info is second hand, but this foster mom is my rescue coordinator and I speak with her daily, as well as being at her house frequently.
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Mattie
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by Mattie »

From my first post:
Please can you give us a run down of his normal day, food, exercise, training etc. we love long posts.
My second post
No he is not a naughty boy, he is a stressed dog doing what stressed dogs do. I am pleased there isn't a health problem but you haven't give us a run down of his normal day. Please include exercise, what type, food, what type and how often, training, how often and what type, play,what type etc. We can only help you if we have a lot of information, we can't see what he is doing we need you to tell us.

Have you done as I suggested by retraining him to toilet outside? This is normal when you take a dog on, many have to be retrained for this when they move into a new home.
From my third post
Sorry I missed what breeds he was, Beagles like Terriers are bred to run all day, often in the mountains, there is a pack of Beagles not far from me were they hunt on the Pennines which is very rough, mountainous land, they have to be able to run all day when hunting, corgis are also working dogs, they herd cows.
You are obviously not reading the replies and I am now suspecting you are a troll, I hope I am wrong.
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heydeej
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by heydeej »

From your last post:
Mattie wrote:So you don't have the dog, we are getting all this second hand, we can only go on what we are told, up to now you haven't answered all the questions we have asked for more information, we don't know what breed he is or how old, WE NEED INFORMATION. Until I get more information I am not prepared to give any more advice, the wrong advice can be dangerous.
That is why I quoted my original post. Your above reply indicated that you did not know his breed or age, which I did provide in my original post.
heydeej wrote:Yes, we did the potty training routine. He was leashed to my side for the first 2 weeks, but it became apparrent that he understood the potty thing, so I stopped.
and so I answered your second post.

I have given details of his routine and what training we are trying. The only thing I have not address was his food, which is Nutro venison and rice, as the fosters other dogs have some food allergies.

Yes, I have read and responded to the questions. Now, who is not reading the replies?

The foster mom takes all new fosters thru potty training reinforcement. She is experienced in bringing new fosters into the home. We have acknowledged that this is stress or anxiety related. Walking is not enough for this dog, we realize. Even at adoption events, where the dog walkers tag-team his walking to try to wear him out, he lifts his leg and pees out the side of the kennel. I have stated that I agree that he needs help to overcome his anxiety, like rescue remedy, and we have bought some to try this week.
My last post was:
We all agree that he is a VERY high energy dog. Foster mom says no matter what she does, she can't wear him out. We stand and look at her treadmill and think...hmmmm, but have not resorted to that yet.
I think Rescue Remedy is an excellent idea for this dog. If we can curb his enthusiasm, he may do better in the home. At least until we can find a triathlete to place him with.
We are at that point where we put into place the things we have all discussed and we try some herbs to see if it helps the little guy out. That is where it was left off.

So where in there is the troll?
Wicket
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by Wicket »

Please folks, let's focus on the dog. That's what's really important here.
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Mattie
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by Mattie »

Yes Wicket the dog is important which is why I continued to try and help but all I got back was lack of information and agro, I don't come here for agro because people don't reply to questions or like the information that has been given. I won't be replying on here again.
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heydeej
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Re: behavioral peeing

Post by heydeej »

my last post showed that I have answered the questions and given information. I am not the one who is not reading replies. Mattie plainly did not even read my last reply or she would see that I have given her the info she requested.
We are following the plan and the dog is doing better. We found a 14 year old boy in the neighborhood who likes to run and he is taking Gunner to the track with him a few days a week, and the foster mom has increased her afternoon walk to 45 min.
Sorry if Mattie is too frustrated to reply. If she would slow down and read more thoroughly, she would save herself alot of "agro".
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