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Monkey wrote:(and he always says women can't be dominant enough cause we are always the care givers GRRRRR and therefor we make bad rott owners... Mutter mutter mutter
Are you freaking kidding me!? Did he really say that!? I can tell you right now, if Ceasar had to handle what I handle in a day, he's be curled up in a corner on the floor sobbing.
[url=http://www.myspace.com/walkinforraven][b]Walkin' For Raven![/b][/url]
I think his comments may have been misquoted. He has made lots of self-depracating comments such as "dogs are like men, can't do two things at once," and stuff like that. Some of his comments about women can be sexist, but I don't recall ever hearing him say that women make bad rott owners - I think what he said was that nothing is more impressive than a woman who can handle a powerful breed like a rottie, let alone two (it was a show about a woman who adopted two abandoned rottie puppies and then didn't know how to handle them). So yes, that comment is sexist, but let's not put even worse words into the man's mouth. People on this board dislike him enough as it is!
I watch both shows all the time. I am a big fan of Ceasar and of Victoria. I would like to clear up a few things though. When you watch TDW, Ceasar does not just limit the entire experience to the behavioural training you see on TV. He also uses training in combination.
The behavioural conditioning is two part. First, he takes a dominant role over the animal. He demonstrates this to the owners and how it is important to establish yourself as the leader. Victoria does the same, in a way. She is confident and firm in her training and passes these tools on to the pet owners, helping them establish themselves as the leaders as well. Next, Ceasar empowers timid or fearful owners, thereby letting them control their animals with confidence. How is this mch different from how Victoria teaches people to control and train their animals with confidence?
Another thing that is often missed, because it is mostly eliminated from the show, is that Ceasar actually does use training and praise. A few episodes, you see clips of training techniques not all that dissimilar from Victoria's. He teaches people using props and tools, and he works with the animals and what you see are mostly the finished products of a confident handler and relaxed, obedient pet.
A show down between the television's two top stars would do little, as they use a lot of the same core methods, just going about them from somewhat different approaches.
Again, I am a fan of both because they both have a lot to teach and have proven track records of success. When it comes to troublesome pets, or advancing your pets abilities, never forget to use all of the tools you can get your hands on, not just the ones from one side of the room or the other.
1) Dominance theory is an outdated theory based on a pack of unrlated wolves in an unfamiliar situation where many of the behaviors were misinterpreted.
2) The part of the brain responsible for symbolic thinking is underdeveloped in dogs (and wolves) making it highly unlikely they can assign rank.
3) VS does not use physical positive punishment whereas Cesar does, and often.
4) Cesar does not focus on positive reinforcement and marker training whereas VS does
5) I think Victoria made her feelings on dominance theory very clear on GAD. She does not support dominating a dog. Cesar does.
6) Victoria took the time to study under some of the leading behaviorists today, whereas Cesar grew up watching dogs on his grandfather's farm and then became a groomer.
Just for extra credit, no expert has ever documented one wolf rolling another in the wild. In fact, the person responsible for introducing the "Alpha Roll" to the public, Job Micheal Evens, recinded his support of it and newer publications of How to Be your Dog's Best Friend do not include this move, yet Cesar continues to use it.
Kim and Asher
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
Monkey wrote:
I know I can keep on dreaming, but it would be so nice to see this man stomped to the ground by victorias georgus boots. (and he always says women can't be dominant enough cause we are always the care givers GRRRRR and therefor we make bad rott owners... Mutter mutter mutter)
He said that!!! I own a Toy Poodle but trust me, I have handled Bigger Dogs then HIM! If he said that in front of me...well...lets just say I taught my Toy Poodle how to Scratch and also how to chase on command......
Monkey wrote:
I know I can keep on dreaming, but it would be so nice to see this man stomped to the ground by victorias georgus boots. (and he always says women can't be dominant enough cause we are always the care givers GRRRRR and therefor we make bad rott owners... Mutter mutter mutter)
He said that!!! I own a Toy Poodle but trust me, I have handled Bigger Dogs then HIM! If he said that in front of me...well...lets just say I taught my Toy Poodle how to Scratch and also how to chase on command......
Well, I'm probably setting myself up for a tongue lashing here..but I do believe that Cesar's INTENT when discussing women dog handlers was not to diminish women in general.
In his first book, Cesar's Way,he discusses the turnaround he had about his thoughts on women due to his wife. I think that his comments hold SOME truth in the sense that with some of the more independent minded breeds a LOT of women (but not all, myself included) tend to see themselves as the "caregiver" to their dogs to the detriment of the setting of boundaries in training. He often says that the caregiver mentality is a bonus and a wonderful thing, in fact he has worked hard to develop that side of himself..(keep working on that one, Cesar).
I like Cesar as a human being, dislike MUCH of what he does in his "behavioural" practices but do not think he is "sexist" or misogynistic.
I continue to hope, Like Missy May, that a crossover may one day occur. Nothing wrong with dreaming!
I agree with you, Cracker. It takes time to rethink a lifetime of one attitude (machismo) and he is a big man to admit where he went wrong.
Re: the caregiving - hmm, never thought of that - but some of the worst excesses and inadvertent cruelties I see in dog keeping come from a certain type of WOMAN (sexist me ) who treats dogs like babies, and sometimes actively seeks disabled dogs because they are more helpless.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
That was exactly what I meant Nettle. The "coochie coo" women (and yes, some men) who take it far enough that the dogs are not fulfilled as dogs and behaviour issues are rampant due to coddling. I cuddle, treat, baby etc my dog but she also was taught rules, socialized and has been earning her keep since I got her at 4 1/2 months.
Cesar is a far cry from the guy I had a run in with in the park a couple of weeks ago who said "I don't train my dogs like women do. Bully. I put him in his place I tell ya. lol.
Just trying to learn the rules. Apparently it is ok to slam, slander and defame other trainers and methods but not allowed to logically discuss those same trainers or methods? Why hasn't this thread been locked?
Nope - it is not, but that is not what has gone on here. So far everything I read on this thread I can back up with watching the many videos of Cesar Milans show available on YouTube.
However trolling is NOT permitted and you have been asked that if you wish to participate on this board you consider changing your username as it is not appropriate and in direct opposition to the training ethos here.
Again, if you have a problem with the moderation of this board you may speak to me privately via PM... or you can take it to BoardHost who is ultimately 'the boss', so to speak.
Hi,
I watch both shows, however I like Victoria's approach the best. I think many times Cesar is over-confident taking agressive out of control dogs onto public streets. That is just crazy. His claw type slap to the dogs drives me nuts, I think he is asking for an attack. Second I really fear that some day his "pack" will become "unbalanced" and they will find the pack turned on him. It seem like he thinks running with all these big powerful dogs elevates his status.
I have raised, and rehabilitated exotic animals, cougars etc. I currently own a 12 yr old full blood wolf that was raised by an akita. The akita was dominate, and yes a wolf will drop amd roll to the side.
No matter how much we love our pets, they are animals and too much trust can cost a life.
Cindy
I think by far Victoria would win this match. I mean in Ceasers book, he said he has only untrained 3 dogs.......ONLY????? Victoria has trained EVERY dog that she was orderd to train. Think about it...............
cassiesloveableowner
________________________
"The sound of a barking dog is music to my ears."
That is not entirely true. There has been at least 1 episode where the problems were not resolved. It was the fault of the owner for not following the training plan, but at the end of the episode, Victoria gives recommendations on which dogs should be re-homed as the owner had more dogs than should could deal with.
cassiesloveableowner wrote:I think by far Victoria would win this match. I mean in Ceasers book, he said he has only untrained 3 dogs.......ONLY????? Victoria has trained EVERY dog that she was orderd to train. Think about it...............
cassiesloveableowner
________________________
"The sound of a barking dog is music to my ears."
Cesar does not claim to be a dog trainer. In fact he often brings dog trainers on the show. He focuses on behaviors, mostly human, that elicit changes in the dogs.
I can tell you right now, if Ceasar had to handle what I handle in a day, he's be curled up in a corner on the floor sobbing. 
) who treats dogs like babies, and sometimes actively seeks disabled dogs because they are more helpless.
