When to neuter?

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wvvdiup1
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Babyman, I didn't see any derision or ridicule to any of your posts here. From what you've told us, you have 32 years experience in training and from what I'm assuming you have a post graduate degree in this field?

If this is true, then you're going to find a lot of bickering or disagreements in this field as you would in any other field, with or without a doctorate degree. As many of us have similar experiences with our dogs, whether it is in training, feeding, grooming, health problems, or any other problem, that any assistance we've sought, we've been given various answers to our solutions in which some of those solutions have resulted in further problems. From that point, we've sought assistance elsewhere and were given different solutions. In short, most, if not all, have their own opinions to solutions based on their own knowledge, research, and experience. There is no one way, right way, or one solution to solving a problem. In other words, we try different ways to solve the problem.

In either case, it is best to keep an open mind to what others tell you, whether or not what others say is right or wrong, it is up to you to think and decide what is right for your dog. Remember, it is up to all of us to either take the advice of others or leave it. In the end, the choice is ours and ours alone.

By the way, I want this to be known that this post isn't attacking Babyman or anyone else! "You" means everyone and anyone here!
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emmabeth
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by emmabeth »

Im not sure where the derision and ridicule has occurred.

Science and education has lots to offer - hands on experience and practical knowledge also has lots to offer - the combination of the two is a good thing.

The total reliance on either one OR the other can become a problem and that is whats being stated here...

There is the issue that unfortunately, where it applies to a great many things, 'scientific research' costs money, and money is only provided by those with a vested interest in a particular outcome.

Its very VERY possible to sway such things to say what you want them to say.

For example - testicular cancer in dogs is quite common - ergo - neuter your dog, because cancer is a scary bad thing.

On the OTHER hand.... DEATH from testicular cancer is not very common at all... because its a very slow growing cancer, in a place that is easy to check and monitor and to remove before the cancer spreads.

On the reverse.... whilst bone cancer is not anywhere near as common as testicular cancer - it is more likely in a large breed dog neutered pre pubertally. It is a VERY fast spreading cancer and it is incredibly hard to spot before it has spread so it kills dogs and is by far the more dangerous cancer.

If I stand to make money out of neutering dogs - then Im going to tell you the first part of that and I might not tell you the rest. If i stand to make money out of NOT neutering dogs.... I might focus very heavily on the latter part of that and not the former.

For the last 20/30 years in the UK at least... large rescue charities and vets have had an interest in the benefits of neutering. That is NOT to say that vets are money grabbers, far from it but they ARE running businesses.

On the other hand, no one with the money to do anything about it, has had a vested interest in the negative effects of neutering.. sure, owners do.... but they dont have the money to do this kind of research nor advertise the results in the same way as a National organisation can.

(In fact, Im fairly sure that neither big rescue charities, or vets have funded any of this research for or against neutering.. its ALL come about as evidence from research carried out by big drugs companies who are finding treatments for cancers and various other diseases. That is where the money is!)

Science and practical real life experience need to go together.... on their own... well real life experience can be limited - I know of a dog trainer who advertises "40 years experience in dog training' - which sounds impressive but its 40 years worth of teaching Border Collies to do competitive obedience using compulsive and punishment based training. It doesnt equip her to use positive training to fix a behavioural issue in a springer spaniel!

Science as made some monumental errors... Our understanding of particle physics is ever changing for example and what we knew last year and what we knew 10, 20, 100 years ago is always being revised, updated, changed, scrapped!... What about chemical and medical science... it took around 14 years for people link thalidomide with the horrific deformities and infant fatalities it caused, and it took a LOT longer for science, and chemical industry to accept the damage DDT caused.

Anyway to wind up my ramble - no one is saying here to discount or ignore science... but some of us ARE saying practical, hands on experience DOES count for something too and that where science applies to dogs (amongst a great many other things), the sources of that science ought to be considered.

Keep questioning - NO ONE is above question, keep reading, learning, researching and experiencing!
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Mattie
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Mattie »

I suspect Babyman that you are not taking into account that this is the internet and you can't see who is doing the writing, we also go a lot by someone's body language which we can't see in the internet so often posts are read in a different way to what was intended. There can be many reasons for this, how we are feeling on that day, are we healthy or ill, are we tired or full of energy, even if we have had too much to drink the night before.

Since I joined I have seen a big change in member's ideas, they have learnt from others on here and have learnt from their dogs, also researched etc. the main thing is they have continued to learn, part of this learning is questioning everything.

People question for various reasons, usually because they don't understand but often for clarification of a point that wasn't quite clear or information of where they got their information from. We can't learn if we don't ask questions, the more intelligent children are the ones that ask questions and drive their parents mad.

I grew up at a time when asking questions wasn't done, except for the odd naughty child like me, I love to know the reason why, and this often got me into trouble. My own children were encouraged to ask questions and thankfully their generation was. Only in the past 2 weeks someone has asked what various terminology words meant, if he hadn't asked it would have been a lot more difficult for him to learn more about dogs. Really he shouldn't need to ask, that is us falling down.

Never attack someone who asks questions, most of the world we know today is because someone asked questions.
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wvvdiup1
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Part of learning is asking questions no matter if the question sounds "stupid" or "foolish", because it may be a question others are afraid to ask! :D

If you can't ask questions, then you must ask yourself what is the subject or topic worth? :wink:
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runlikethewind
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by runlikethewind »

We've lost him anyway now - shame in a way as he did pose an interesting point (but spoilt it afterwards)
Oh well.
wvvdiup1
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Runlikethewind wrote:
We've lost him anyway now - shame in a way as he did pose an interesting point (but spoilt it afterwards)
Oh well.
I think so too, Runlikethewind! :( However, I had the feeling he (or she) wasn't going to keep an open mind to what anyone told him (or her) anyway. That's a sad fact when you think education has take place between four walls!
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Mattie
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Mattie »

Recently we have had several who try to be difficult with their questions etc. some attack others just keep saying the same thing over and over again and accuse us of having closed minds, when you read their posts properly it is them who have the closed minds. Sometimes they bring up some good points that make us think, this is good for us because we question our knowledge in relation to our dogs, but they don't question their knowledge.

When I was a child we were expected to believe what we were told because it was adults telling us, I was often introuble because I didn't, I prefer people to ask questions, how else are they going to learn?
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Nettle
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Nettle »

It's fairly unusual except among trolls to come newly on a Board and start throwing your weight about. :lol: Most people like to read and post a bit first.
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Sarah83
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Sarah83 »

Nettle wrote:It's fairly unusual except among trolls to come newly on a Board and start throwing your weight about. :lol: Most people like to read and post a bit first.
Hmm...maybe that's why I've been taken for a troll at first on some boards. I have strong opinions on some topics and state them even if I'm new :lol:
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Nettle
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Nettle »

That's quite different from slagging off other Board members at the first post. Everyone here is encouraged to air their opinions, and welcomed for having them, right from the get-go.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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Duffy Jones
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Duffy Jones »

Sorry - I missed a couple of days.

First let me address the problem between research -(written) and experience. Both are keys to making progress in science. Our experience says - I am seeing a lot this behavior so therefore I want to try to prove my theory. Then as you try to prove your theory you try and set up an experiment to either prove or disprove your theory. However, the problem with have with research in veterinary medicine is that funding is very hard to come by and also the studies are typically so small (5 to 10 dogs) that you have to interrupt those results in light of a small sample size. So, I believe both experience and research are both needed to advance the science of veterinary medicine. If you rely one too heavily then you can get off track. Also, you have to realize that things change as we learn more. You have to realize that things we thought were fact 10 years ago may not be fact anymore. I always preface anything I say about research with the statement that this is the current thinking at this time but check back with me in a year because things might have changed. One (research or experience) are not better than the other but have to be used together to figure things out.

As for the question of early spay/neuter or even to spay or neuter at all, remember that the people on this site are much more progressive then our everyday person we interact with. I wish all my clients were as informed as most here, but that is not the case. I routinely have owners that have young intact male dogs that are humping them, the kids, and everyone who walks in the house. They come in and I tell them there might be trainings that they can do and that it can be normal behavior, but they do not care. They want it to stop or they will get rid of the dog. I know for all who read this will seem impossible but this happens everyday. Will neutering get this dog to stop - maybe but it has a better shot at controlling it then getting the owner to understand the training issues. Does every dog that I neuter early have behavioral or orthopedic problems - no. So there are times and it depends on the clients on what we recommend.

The reality of this situation is that I still believe that early spay/neuter is a good thing. It is not because I make money of the procedure. Remember that we deal with 1000's of dogs a year and we recommend things that will work for most. We know that intact male dogs in the hands of clients who do not know what they are doing will get into more fights and be more aggressive. Will every intact male dog be aggressive - no but in the hands of inexperienced owners they tend to be. So I recommend neutering, I feel that I stop more behavioral problems (aggression) where the owners will then come to me to put the dog down then I would if I told owners that they did not have to neuter their dog. No scientific research on that one but more experience of having to deal with these dogs after they have attacked someone. Just remember the average pet owner does not think about all these things that you'll do. They want a pet that greets them when they come home and that they do not have put a lot of time into.

I also recommend early spay/neuter because I want to decrease the pet population. As soon as a dog gets pregnant and the owners were not planning on it they usually come in and want me to abort the puppies or if they cannot find homes for them they want me to put them to sleep. I will refuse to put them to sleep and they storm off mad and either bring the dog to the shelter where it is put to sleep after being confined in a cage for weeks or they will just let it go in the wild. It is the reality of the situation. I know no one reading this would ever do that but that is what we deal with everyday.

So, yes, I do talk about new thinking with owners who are responsible and look like they want to put the time into it. I still do recommended spay and neutering because I am tired of putting healthy dogs to sleep because no one wants them. My perspective is very different. I will deal with some behavioral problems in a few dogs to prevent having to put down a lot of healthy young dogs.

So, this is a tough issue. There will be lots of fighting about changing our current recommendations because we are looking at it as a herd health problem. We are not making these recommendations to make money. We are making these recommendations because of population control. If you are looking at it from the behavioral side then you will have one perspective. You see young dogs who are neutered/spayed who are having behavioral problems and you say that it seems like there are alot of dogs in this group that have behavioral problems, but remember you may only be seeing a very small percentage of the dog population. Many dogs who you do not see are not having any behavior problems and that is why you do not see them. I see a whole different perspective on the dogs I see. A good example is that I do not like raw hide chews because I see all the dogs who eat them and start throwing up. I therefore think they are bad. However, I also have to realize that there are millions of dog everyday who eat rawhide and never have a problem. Since they do not have a problem then I do not see them.

So after a long winded and rambling post - just remember on the spay/neuter question there are many perspectives and try to understand where others are coming from and from a personal note, please do not think that we recommended procedures to make money. Most (and I say most not all) are in this to help animals. We try to make the best recommendations for both our patients and our clients, but we are also the ones left to clean up the mess (unwanted dogs) when people are not responsible. If we were in it for the money we would have become human doctors or stock brokers. There are very few that pay the huge money and the 4 to 5 years to get through vet school who do it for the money.

duf
Duffy Jones, DVM
Peachtree Hills Animal Hospital
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Mattie
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Mattie »

Thanks Duffy, you always give us something to think about :D I know from what my vets say that they can't always recommend the best for the animal because they know they won't get the care they need when at home.

Until recently I used to do a lot for rescues and see the amount of healthy dogs in pounds with no hope of finding a home, most either Staffies or Terriers, it is heartbreaking.
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Sarah83
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Sarah83 »

Nettle wrote:That's quite different from slagging off other Board members at the first post. Everyone here is encouraged to air their opinions, and welcomed for having them, right from the get-go.
Sadly I can't say the same for all forums. On some of them if you have an opinion that differs from a regulars opinion you will be jumped on and flamed for absolutely everything you say.
Duffy Jones
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Duffy Jones »

Mattie,

Does it just break your heart to see them in the shelters. We do a lot of rescue work and it is just heartbreaking sometimes.

duf
Duffy Jones, DVM
Peachtree Hills Animal Hospital
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Mattie
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Mattie »

Yes it does break my heart, especially when I have to leave dogs behind knowing that they are going to be pts, I want to take them all home with me but know I can't. :cry:
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