When to neuter?

[Fundog]

Josie, it just so happens I have an answer to your last question!

Recently, I watched a documentary on television describing a study done on the brains of psychopaths, criminals, dare devils, and "ordinary" folks. MRI technology has given us the ability to get in-depth images of the human brain without necessarily needing to cut the brain up into little pieces (and hence needing the subject to be dead). It turns out there is a little part deep inside the hippocampus of the brain, called the amygdala. The amygdala plays an influence on inhibition, fear, and remorse. It also communicates with the frontal cortex, the thinking, rational part of the brain. MRI images discovered that the amygdala in the brains of criminals and dare devils is actually smaller than the amygdala of "normal" people. They also discovered that in many cases the amygdala and the frontal cortex do not work in synchrony together, and so there is a bit of a "mis-fire."

Of course, this is not to say there is any excuse for committing crimes, and certainly criminals need to be locked up, if for no other reason than to protect the public. But I found the segment to be rather fascinating, and now when I watch tv shows with video clips of stupid people committing crimes, the big joke is, "he has a very small amygdala."

But I don't think these results would necessarily apply to aggressive dogs, bulls, horses, and other "mean" animals. It might make for an interesting study, wouldn't it?

[emmabeth]

Babyman - nobody on here is obliged to provide their qualifications, C.V. or personal details such as websites or lists of their published works should they have any.

You may choose to listen and research further, or not - it is entirely up to you.

You may not be rude to other forum members however, as that is not welcome on this forum.

[babyman]

Emmabeth, I am so sorry that you feel that I appeared to be rude by asking for information and credentials. The professionals that I work with, are always willing to provide them. As a post graduate student in canine behavior, I have watched with great interest Ms. Stilwells efforts to further the education of the public, regarding postivie training and health of canines. To my disappointment I find a total lack of respect for the few professionals providing information to this forum. I was hoping to find an atmosphere which fostered idea exchange, not one person insisting that they have the answer to every question, and dismissing veterinary professionals, and Ms. Stilwell. I believe your post to me provided the answers to what I have suspected. My sincere apologies, it was not my intent to be rude in any fashion. I wish you and the forum the best.

[Nettle]

Babyman, when you have my years of experience, you will look back on what you posted here with embarrassment.

I have plenty of well -respected professional qualifications, but qualifications are worth little compared with life experience and interpretive ability. I know some stunning dog behaviourists with no qualifications at all - but plenty of dog sense.

Most of all, we need to question everything we read and are told and compare it analytically with what we see. You only have to read the early works of (say) Lorenz or Mech to realise how what was taught as gospel truth at one time has been recognised as misinterpretation by the very same authors who wrote it, after they had gained even more experience. Unfortunately the early works still exist, and are still taught from. Believing any qualification makes you wise and any teacher always teaches truth will limit your horizons.

Questioning what you see here is very useful and sensible - you/we must question everything. That is how we learn. Disregarding something because you have not read it in a published paper will also limit you most severely.

[Sarah83]

excessive male behaviors

What do you class as excessive male behaviours?

[babyman]

Nettle, you are correct, I only have 32 years of experience training dogs, not 40. While I too have my own experiences and observations, I have benefitted greatly by my decision to obtain formal education in canine behavior. I feel it is NEVER an either or situation, but a blending of both that benefits dogs and owners. I sincerely hope that I never become so complacent, and confident in my own opinion that I refuse to respect the beliefs and research of others. I am well aware of the shifting of studies and beliefs, precisely why, we as professional trainers should guard against touting our beliefs as fact, before it is scrutinized by experts and stands the test of time. Each of us is capable of learning more each day, if we choose to, and keep an accepting and open mind that others may have something to offer as well.
In the words of Emmabeth, rudeness is never acceptable anywhere

[runlikethewind]

Hello

May I change the subject slightly as to whether to neuter at all?

I'd like to ask something about the health benefits or not on neutering and also on behaviour because today I found myself engaging in a conversation during my lunchtime dog walk with a dog walker about this subject. She had a few dogs with her and one was on leash - a stunning entire male Rhodesian Ridgeback. Clearly quite young, boisterous and pulling about, huffing etc. She said to another person, oh well his owner has him booked in for his 1st birthday present (castration) in a couple of days' time. My dog (an entire male 2.5 year old) has learnt to keep his distance now (after learning the hard way NOT to get into fights with dogs). If he is threatened or challenged, he will react, but he seems to make the maturer choice now to walk around and avoid, especially when we are out in the open. If paths are forced to cross, that is a different matter and it depends on how the other dog is eyeing him, as to whether there ensues a lot of growling and teeth baring/fighting.

Anyway, my point is.. I asked out of interest (as I ALWAYS am interested) as to why the dog was being castrated and she said he humps everything. Oh I said, my dog used to do that only a little when he was young and we deflected his attention and he doesnt do it now. I said maybe the dog will grow out of it as he is only one and he'll maybe mature. She categorically said no, he won't. I said, oh how do you know?... She said ' I just know plus male dogs, including this one, have terrible recall and like to go and do their own thing and in any case, there are health benefits to castration and if you are not going to breed, there is no point in keeping them enture.' I said, well maybe that's a recall issue (to which she took great offence) and I said it's interesting you should mention about the health risks that because I did a fair amount of research on this and I found a piece of research (at this point she was just talking over me) that seems to suggest that, on balance, for males the risks are greater for castrated males in developing prostrate cancer and that testicular cancer is actually rare, so all things given, the male should remain entire - if there are no major problem areas to deal with with regard to hormones. It's important to check the testicles regularly, the report said. She said she used to be a vet nurse and had seen cases of testicular cases. The piece of research did however say, on balance, there is a clear benefit to spaying because of the risk of the womb infection. She and I agreed on that much at least but sadly not much else, so we bid farewell ( well I did, she just walked off!)

I was just wondering therefore if you've done similar research and what the general consesus is around neutering/ spaying at all?

Totally open to being batted down with anything that I have interpreted wrongly or misreading research etc.
Thanks

[Mattie]

It seems to me, that behavior, if left unchecked, becomes a habit rather than a transition phase. Nettle, exactly where is your information documented? You represent yourself as an authority on numerous topics, but seem to have no legitimate credentials. I am a frequent viewer of this forum, and shake my head often at your theories. Experience does not mean that you are qualified to judge the research and results acquired by professionals. You have managed to challenge every qualified professional on this board, including Victoria Stilwell herself. If you are so highly qualified, why do you not have your own website, or several books?

How rude, you have the audacity to question Nettle's credentials but say nothing about yourself for all we know you have not even had a dog.

Nettle doesn't challenge every qualified professional on this board, she does debate which we all do giving her ideas just like we all do, thankfully she doesn't attack people they way you have just done.

[Mattie]

Emmabeth, I am so sorry that you feel that I appeared to be rude by asking for information and credentials. The professionals that I work with, are always willing to provide them. As a post graduate student in canine behavior, I have watched with great interest Ms. Stilwells efforts to further the education of the public, regarding postivie training and health of canines. To my disappointment I find a total lack of respect for the few professionals providing information to this forum. I was hoping to find an atmosphere which fostered idea exchange, not one person insisting that they have the answer to every question, and dismissing veterinary professionals, and Ms. Stilwell. I believe your post to me provided the answers to what I have suspected. My sincere apologies, it was not my intent to be rude in any fashion. I wish you and the forum the best.

Babyman, just because you are a post graduate in canine studies doesn't mean you have experience, I know many that have qualifications but no experience, these are doing a lot of damage to dogs which others have to sort out, they have done so much damage to some that they had to be pts.

Just because you are a professional doesn't give you the right to demand respect, that has to be earned, we can discuss things here, we can have different opinions, we can ask questions no matter how foolish we feel, there are very few forums were you can do that, I have left many many forums because of the attitute of the members, this one is one of the best.

Nobody has dismissed vedterinary professionals, that is in your mind, thankfully Duffy is one of the few professionals were we can discuss various aspect with him, I love the discussions were he puts the vet aspect as in this one.

To me we need to educate the public but that is just a dream because many don't want to be educated, those that do find forums like this to ask questions.

Having worked in rescue, had to make the decision which dogs should live and which die, I can understand vets wanting to neuter early, but before we had the puppy farms we didn't have the dog problem that we have today. Yes dogs did have pups but it was rare that homes couldn't be found for them, they usually went to friends, neighbours or family. There were back yard breeders but they didn't turn out the amount of dogs that the puppy farms do.

Life has changed so much in the last 50 years, we now have a throw away society, it is much easier and cheaper to throw something away than to have it fixed, we are often told that when we try to get things fixed, it is so much easier to kick a dog out and get another when they become teenagers than to train them so the rescues are full and the pounds are putting to sleep lovely healthy dogs.

[Mattie]

Going back to when I first decided to learn more about dogs I paid for a distance course, once I had done this course I could then call myself a behaviourist, physcologist or consultant, very impressive. I threw the course away when I read it, everythink in I already knew, I learnt nothing it was really basic stuff. Many people doing this course were setting themselved up as behaviourists etc. thankfully I had the sense to realise that there was more to dogs than this course. Yes, I am able to put letters after my name according to this course.

[runlikethewind]

Babyman - this is one of the best forums out there. Everyone is willing to learn and take on board comments. The trainers on here are all united in one thing - and that is gentle training and looking at new ways of thinking. Everyone manages to keep calm and enjoys the atmosphere on here generally. Let's keep it that way. Your original point It seems to me, that behavior, if left unchecked, becomes a habit rather than a transition phase was worthy of good discussion but it was somewhat ruined by what you said afterwards.

[Nettle]

Total reliance on science (oh I'm a poet ) indicates people have not spent enough real-world study time . Where I live, people can get a degree, even a Master's, in animal behaviour, without ever having owned an animal. Obviously they have learned a great deal of theory, but transferring it to real live animals is a shock they never knew was coming and none of us ever stops learning what the animals teach us.

Science is valuable, but scientific study does not "prove" anything that wasn't there in the first place, so getting hung up on something being or not being scientifically proven does not mean that it only started to exist when a scientist conducted an experiment. Detailed study of many of these experiments often shows deep flaws, misinterpretation and erroneous conclusions. Later science proves that the earlier science that we were told was so right is in fact so wrong - then future science is very likely to come to different conclusions again. So it must be seen as a valuable study tool but not a cast-iron guarantee of truth.

Scientific study is also flawed in that someone has to pay for it - often an organisation with a financial or moral interest in a certain outcome, which can lead to skewed results - has to be conducted by somebody who may or may not be familiar with the animal in its natural environment (see the early wolf-pack studies) then has to be interpreted. Whether that interpretation is accurate or not depends on many external factors.

Meanwhile there is observation and experience. It may be dismissed as "opinion" or "hearsay" or "anecdotal" until it has been proved by a scientist but that does not mean it was ever wrong - just that science briefly caught up with fact.

[Nettle]

Runlikethewind, I do not have my dogs neutered and am prepared to accept the extra caution needed to prevent unwanted litters - which is pretty straightforward and no big effort. Also being in the working dog world where it is normal to keep dogs of either gender entire, I can safely say that they are unremarkable in behavioural terms. Not perfect - no dog is - but for the most part, lovely hang-up-free animals. So it is in my opinion useful for people to have the choice, as long as they embrace the commitment to preventing unwanted pups.

My stud dog won many trophies for obedience and field work when younger. Testicles do not make a dog disobedient. I could call him away from a receptive b itch and he would come straight to me. When taken to cover a b itch, he would actually look at me for approval before he did so. I didn't train this - he is just naturally polite.

For some research on the health issues, may I direct you to an article in http://www.homeopathicvet.co.uk" which I think is under Resources. For those who like scientific references, there are plenty.

LINK NOW WORKING

[Mattie]

Total reliance on science (oh I'm a poet ) indicates people have not spent enough real-world study time . Where I live, people can get a degree, even a Master's, in animal behaviour, without ever having owned an animal. Obviously they have learned a great deal of theory, but transferring it to real live animals is a shock they never knew was coming and none of us ever stops learning what the animals teach us.

I have a friend who spent at least 2 years researching the breeds for a put that would suit her lifestyle, she also learnt as much as she could about behaviour and training, she was really good with the theory and often helped others. The breeds didn't normally let novices have any of her pups because they are a high energy breed but allowed my friend to because she had so much knowledge. When her pup arrived he hadn't read all the theory on how to behave or what to do in training sessions, he was a really hard dog to train. I know this dog, he was hard for an experienced owner. My friend has done a remarkable job training him, it took some time but she got there.

Even when you know the theory it often doesn't work in practice which is why I love this forum, so many problems are very similar but the reasons and the solutions are all different, you can only get experience by doing instead of reading.

[babyman]

As I recently pointed out, I began my dog training history 32 years ago. Once our children were raised, and the money was available, I conceded that I did not know it all and wanted to pursue a more formal education. I fail to understand how any professional can close their mind so firmly that any information that does not agree with them is met with derision and ridicule. I certainly hope this attitude is not shared by Ms. Stilwell, and her representatives. I find it extremely unfortunate that there seems to be a lack of willingness to join academia with experience. How much more could be accomplished. I have requested my membership be deleted.