When to neuter?

[Nettle]

Josie, without compromising client confidentiality, would you be able to access records of dogs with separation anxiety and find how old they were when neutered? And provide a "control" list of un-neutered dogs with separation anxiety?

We could be on to some figures here.

[Nettle]

Ref. bulls, stallions, rams - they are neutered for two reasons - one that they are big animals and seasonal breeders (dogs can breed any time they find a receptive b itch) so yes they are dangerous for their size and unpredictable with their breeding needs. I have done a lot of stallion work but my bull/sheep knowledge is much less and only from cattle and sheep farmers I mix with.

Neutering alters their growth pattern, which is handy when raising for meat. Gelding horses makes them grow to a different shape too, which is why we seldom see stallions racing after three years old. This is because the neck and shoulder development hampers racing. The longer legs and lighter physique of the gelding make a better racehorse. Takes a good filly to beat a good gelding. In disciplines such as dressage where great collection is needed, the stallion physique does not hamper the work - so you see a lot of stallions doing dressage.

The court eunuchs were known for their boyish physiques and they later ran to fat. They never grew to the shape of men unless gelded after their voices had broken.

All this has been known for as long as people have kept livestock (and castrati) - yet only NOW are we looking at the effect it has physically on our dogs.

Equally, only now are a few of us getting air time for telling those willing to listen about the mental effects of neutering our dogs while still in their developmental stages. But it happens, and it needs more investigation.

[josie1918]

I just downed our brangus bull when I went home in August, took out the side of our barn, charged our horses, and anything else that moves, all of us had sustained injuries from working with him. 2,000 pounds of pure mean. I grinned the entire way to the meat processing plant
I will be happy to pull out anonymous files and see what I find in the way of fearful behavior. So far 3 come to mind, they were early spays, but they also have owners who dress them in doll clothes, do NOT allow them dog behavior and carry them around in vulgar looking rhinstone handbags, Geez

PS: I dated that eunuch in college

[josie1918]

Also, because we have different experiences with the horse/cattle thing. I can tell you that due to the thickness of the necks, stallions are not balanced to work cattle. Our horses are working horses, 2 geldings, 2 mares. We geld, because we don't raise horses, none of us want to deal with the b.s. of horse fights and we need horses capable of doing the job well. Personally I don't notice a shape difference other than the neck, but then quarter horses are not the graceful build of the dressage horses either. They are much rounder, more rugged I think. The cattle, I don't even want to think about more than 2 bulls what a freakin' nightmare that would be Just a look at things from the working side of things.

[Mattie]

When I was about 5 or 6, I used to play motorbikes with my uncle's bull, in those days cows were not dehorned. I was the only one who could get near this bull, to clean him out he had to be shut out of the pen in his sleeping/feeding area, and to clean that out he had to be shut into the pen. He was dangerous and would kill anyone who went near him except me. I got my butt smacked when it was found out.

The age a gelding is castrated is also relevant, the only one I know who was castrated when 10 months old was neurotic, I ended up inside a supermarket one day when riding him. His shape never changed either. The vet who castrated my horse wouldn't do it until he was 2 years old, said they didn't develop properly mentally or physically so it looks like this isn't just a dog problem.

[Fundog]

Well, I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again, just for those who are new and not familiar with my two dogs-- and just to add my own experience:

We got Annie as a three month old puppy. According to our contract with the animal shelter, we had her spayed early, at just four months old. I can honestly say she has turned out to be a very nicely grown-up dog. Yes, she had some fears during her puppyhood, but I consider them to be common puppyhood fears (like crossing busy streets, bridges, and cattle guards). She does not have, nor has ever had, separation anxiety. In fact, Annie is a very calming influence for Dottie.

Then there's Dottie. She was a year old when the rescue found her, and it was obvious by her teat development that she had experienced a season. The rescue got her spayed right away, so we had no choice in the matter, regardless. Dottie is now three years old, and still very much a puppy, in many ways. She does have many fears, and does experience some separation anxiety if she is apart from Annie. However, I do believe that all of her problems stem from the deplorable conditions in which she was raised by her original owners, and the circumstances she was found in by the rescue, and has nothing to do with having a season, or with being spayed.

Some have pointed out that my Annie was raised in a very loving, supportive, and consistent manner, which may have off-set any possible negative effects of early spaying. Fortunately for Annie's case, we will never know whether that is true or not. All I do know is that Annie has not manifested any ill-effects of early spaying. On the other hand, Dottie exhibits many of the suggested complications associated with early spaying, even though she had reached sexual maturity before the surgery.

[emmabeth]

I think its worth pointing out for the people who are not familiar with how bulls and stallions are kept, that the way they are kept an dhandled often leads to some of their very dangerous behaviour.

I am not overly familiar with bulls having only had a passing acquaintance with one, on a farm I helped out on, but it seems they are kept not dissimilarly to many stallions and I have a fair bit of experience working and handlng those.

They are very often kept entirely segregated from others of their species, very often shut into looseboxes or stables without even the ability to look out over the door. They are then handled by people who are overly tough with them for fear they will get hurt, and often again handled by people frightened of them.

This very deprived life, being treated as a highly dangerous animal and not allowed to socialise or be treated normally does in my experience lead to the animal becoming very dangerous to be around.

I have however worked with stallions who could be harnessed with a mare and driven (although I think thats a step I wouldnt choose to take myself, the man knew his own horses!), I have photos of me riding in a plain snaffle bit, a native pony stallion when I was no more than 10 or 11, and a good few other stallions I have worked with over the years who were raised and treated like normal horses, socialised, handled, ridden/driven etc... all with care but not the dramatic and OTT handling as if it were a Tiger on the end of the lead rope... and because of this, all behaved as they were expected to behave (and yes, all these stallions covered mares too!).

So - I am not convinced that JUST being entire means an animal is going to be harder work or dangerous to have around. HOw that animal is raised and handled and housed has a big part to play too!

I am not sure that behaviourally, stallions and bulls make a particularly good comparison to dogs because their typical lifestyle is SO different. I would bet if you kept a gelding or a bullock in the same manner they too would be a liablity to be around, and we already know that unsocialised dogs handled harshly and with a 'dominate or be dominated' attitude can become very aggressive and dangerous, regardless of whether they are neutered or not.

[Nettle]

Fundog, your input is so valuable, and shows that difficulties are not inevitable, but I'll bet a pound to a pinch of snuff that a lot of that is your great attitude and willingness to work WITH your dogs and not against them.

Obviously doing behaviour work I see difficult dogs nobody is going to consult me for a happy well-adjusted dog. I meet a lot of dogs when out walking whose behaviour would be unacceptable to ME but their owners are fine with it and there is no reason for us all to have the same standards.

So I am not saying that early neutering is going to cause problems in every single dog - but I am going to say that it has that potential. And I see so many fear issues in these dogs that I don't see in dogs neutered later or not at all.

Josie I cringed at the thought of those poor dogs in dresses.

[Mattie]

You are right Em, my uncle's bull was kept seperate from the other animals and rarely saw much, only when someone went to him. He had a lovely building to live in, purpose built and an outside pen he could be in day and night. He only saw people when being fed or his daily cleaning of his building and pen apart from when I would go and play with him. He wasn't abused, my uncle wouldn't have stood for that, but he did lead a very boring life.

I used to ride out with a 10 year old girl who rode a Hackney stallion, this stallion had won Hackney Horse of the Year several times at The Horse of the Year Show. His behaviour was perfect, he never put a hoof wrong, he was the perfect gentleman. Other horsey people were horrified that I was riding out with him, said it was a disaster waiting to happen, pity their horses weren't as well trained and good mannered as he was.

[Duffy Jones]

As with most things there are many different views and opinions on this issue. Much of the basis of our (vets) recommendation about spaying/neutering at 6 months came many many years ago. Our anesthesia was different and our surgical skill was different so we looked for the best time for the dogs to survive. Yes a 6 months old spay in so much more simple then a 6 year old spay. So, for safety reasons we recommended at that age. Also, dogs in that day and age where doing more of what dogs were supposed to do. They were working, living on the farm, and not crated all day while the owners were at work. So from a behavioral aspect - no one really thought about it because we did not have much behavioral problems. The other reason the recommendation came because we started have lots of stray dogs and cats which were coming down with Rabies so there was a big push to spay early so that we could control the pet population. Again - behavior was not in the thinking of the recommendations.

Now, over the last 10 years the lives of dogs have changed significantly. Most dogs are not working and doing what dogs are supposed to do. The majority of the dogs these days do not get the necessary amount of exercise they need. So, I do believe the early surgery could play a part in the behavior but I also think there are tons of other factors such breeding, genetics, life style. There will be arguments against this because people are so concerned about over population. After having to put to sleep many great dogs because there are not enough people to take care of them will many times change your mind about early spay/neuter. This debate will go on for years because of the different perspective that people have and the different concerns that people have. I do think both sides of this argument have valid points.

duf

[Oakman]

Good point, Doc. I've had most of my dogs neutered before their maturity and not observed associated behavior problems. None of these sporting breeds were "house dogs", and had three fenced acres to roam. Also always had two dogs at a time.

My current dog is an "only dog" after our other dog passing a couple years ago. However, we walk every morning (off leash) in a 600 acre state park surrounding a 700 acre lake. He is dead tired, and satisfied, afterwards. Though he has been taken to the dog park regularly, and fine with other dogs, he is not really a "dog's dog". He tends to greet and then simply ignore.

My own concern about early neutering was not so much behavior, but health issues in later life among these large breed dogs I prefer.

[Duffy Jones]

I want to come live at your place - it sounds great. In your particular case I would have informed you that there is some newer thinking about the orthopedic link and early spay/neuter. Since you seem like a really responsible pet owner, I would leave it up to you if you wanted to do it at 6 months or wait. I usually tell owner that if the dogs start to really show excessive male behaviors then call me and we will get him fixed but if he is doing okay then we can do surgery anytime between 6 month to 2 years or whenever you feel comfortable. I also tell them that in all honest I have no idea if this new thinking will prove itself to be true but also long as you can control you dog then there is no harm in waiting. You will not hear me say that as an across the board type statement but more in an specific cases.

I try to give my owners the most current info but many times we just do not know if the research will back it up.

I hope that i have not confused you more.

duf

[josie1918]

Ok, here comes a rather lengthy one, sorry. A previous post talked about animals working and now evolving into almost family members. This was my point to bringing up the horse thing, our horses are ridden almost every day, but not for pleasure, we move large herds of cattle, seperate cattle etc. with them. I don't know if any of you have seen cutting and roping horses work, but the point I failed to get across was stallions can't do this work worth s--t, due to the heavy neck and shoulders throwing them off balance. We geld because our horses are valuable employees and we can't function well without them. So I guess what I am saying is, it is a job requirement. Now the brangus bull was a s.o.b. from day one, personally I think it is because he was a brahma/angus cross. If no one here ever listens to me, listen now, NEVER play with anything brahma, while healthy, and extrrememly disease resistant ,temperament wise they are satan's own. Anyway, that being said, I would like to move on to some of the findings of file auditing I don't think this is going to be viable, due to too many variables, well actually only one, the owners. While most of our clients have spayed or neutered pets, we have the 3 I mentioned earlier who do not allow the pet to go outside EVER unless it is in the bag. These dogs are scared to death and do not even know what grass is, (the owners use the dog training pads on the floor) We have talked to these owners many, many times but..................... The few intact dogs we see, mostly for "accidents" belong to Mr. Neaderthal and Ms. Crowmagden. The bring them in with their pinch collars on, snarling and lunging and the owners are smiling smuggly. On a whole we have very good clientel, and I did not see more than 3 cases of "suspected" seperation anxiety, however 2 of these were 5 and 7 month old puppies, which makes me wonder if someone left the house and forgot to leave toys out??? So, can you see where I am coming from with this? I rather liken this to the age of debate of nature or nurture in people. Are people criminals due to their enviroment or is it genetic???

[Nettle]

Both, IMO. Genetics respond to the trigger, but if the trigger does not get pulled, the behaviour may never raise its head. Some dogs are wonderful with some people but if other people had them, they would be likely to be horrors. Some people would have dog disasters whatever dogs they had. Some dogs (very very few) would be disasters whoever owned them, and some people never have "bad" dogs.

You know from the working dog world that dogs are customarily left entire, and there is rarely any trouble. This may be due to the physical entirety, the outdoor environment, more natural food, loads of exercise, living in a group, fulfilling natural instincts, being shot if they overstep the mark, being carefully bred from similar stock, natural selection ie the weak die and nobody makes the effort to "save" the less able, being kept by more knowledgeable people, being kept by less knowledgeable people ad inf. ad naus.

Duffy you have raised something crucial and so important: "excessive male behaviour". This is NORMAL in the adolescent male mammal, and is almost always a transitory phase. If only people would realise this and wait.........

[babyman]

It seems to me, that behavior, if left unchecked, becomes a habit rather than a transition phase. Nettle, exactly where is your information documented? You represent yourself as an authority on numerous topics, but seem to have no legitimate credentials. I am a frequent viewer of this forum, and shake my head often at your theories. Experience does not mean that you are qualified to judge the research and results acquired by professionals. You have managed to challenge every qualified professional on this board, including Victoria Stilwell herself. If you are so highly qualified, why do you not have your own website, or several books?