Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

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kelleyanne1988
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Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by kelleyanne1988 »

My parents are going to get one of my boys fixed for me for my birthday. For those of you who have gotten to know my dogs on here a little bit, do you have any advice as to which one I should get fixed first? Or does it matter?

It'll be a while before I can get the 2nd dog fixed.

I didn't know if since Bear seems to be the more "dominate" type between him and Gunner, should I get Bear fixed first? I've heard both sides of that neutering will calm him down and that it won't. Neutering didn't change a thing in my dad's dog when he got fixed. But will it prevent his dominance to become more dominate than what it already is?

I'm going to see my family this weekend, and leaving one dog with them to get fixed... I just have to choose which one. haha Luckily my parents are also going to pay to get the one dog that's getting fixed, also up todate on his shots as well.
Have an Amazing Day,
Kelley Anne, Gunner, and Bear
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Nettle
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by Nettle »

Nice parents :D

I'd say get the more submissive dog castrated first. That creates a bigger divide between them and less likelihood of status battles. If the stronger character is neutered first and so takes a massive drop in confidence, they will be closer together in status terms and more likley to fight.

As you so rightly say, being castrated does not affect any training or behaviour issues.
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josie1918
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by josie1918 »

I have never observed or read about any "massive drop in confidence" in neutered male dogs. Can someone please advise me where to locate the information on this theory? :?
thanks
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Nettle
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by Nettle »

It is such common knowledge that I am truly surprised you have never heard of it before. Any behaviourist worth their salt will say the same. I appreciate you would like a scientific experiment and I daresay there will be some somewhere but forty-odd years of observing behaviour and working with other behaviourists is the source of my information. :D
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josie1918
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by josie1918 »

My concern here is that Ms. Stilwell is evidently very misinformed. In her book "It's me or the dog" Ms. Stilwell devotes 2 whole pages to the health and behavior benefits of neuter/spaying.(pages 36 and 37 to be exact) It is not common knowledge here in the states, and I am totally confused over Ms. Stilwell publishing such erroneous information in a book that is designed to be a source of information to a public seeking help with their dogs.
While not everyone needs to believe in science, we encounter all sorts of people, and they have a right to believe what they chose to believe, it would be appropriate I think for the multitude of testing done which supports Ms. Stilwell to at least be scrutinized with the respect it deserves.
I find it troubling that the owners of dogs who have purchased the book and believe what is printed may be totally confused when reading the claims on this forum. At the end of the day, which ever claim is accurate someones dogs will be the victim of erroneous information.
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Nettle
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by Nettle »

I agree that it would be nice if we all sang from the same hymn sheet :wink: I cannot be responsible for what anyone else has put in a book: I can only be responsible for what I know. So I am not dissing Ms Stillwell or any other person who says neutering is marvellous and wonderful and we should all do it - I am simply answering the OP's question, which is whether to neuter the top-ranking dog or the submissive one first, given that there will be a considerable time lapse between the two neuterings. I also made it clear in my answer why I recommended this.

Had OP asked whether to neuter at all, my answer would have been different again - but I answered the question she asked. And I would still be in disagreement with some :wink:

I absolutely understand your wish to have a scientific experiment to prove anything, but I would say these three things:

How often does new science contradict old science, even when the old science was portrayed as truth set in stone at the time?

If you had extensive personal experience of something, and this was supported by many others in your industry, then someone wrote that you were wrong, would you believe what you had read or what you had seen?

In a society where it is common to neuter dogs, how many people have extensive experience of whole ones with which to compare neutered ones?

It's all a learning experience, and the more we learn, the less we know! :lol:
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josie1918
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by josie1918 »

It is indeed unfortunate that we do not have the same experience, I have not observed any drop in confidence among the thousands of dogs I have seen that are neutered or spayed, but I have seen plenty of nasty, aggressive intact dogs.
I do not acknowledge my observationsas a fact unless they are backed by documentation, and customarily do not offer them, as they are only my opinions. I am not an expert, very few of us are. I am just blessed to have access to articles written by those with the education and knowledge to be a true expert.
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Nettle
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by Nettle »

But you have not followed any of these thousands of dogs that you have seen neutered in behavioural terms - and so many people don't even realise that the behavioural issues they are coping or not coping with are related to the neutering. Because vets don't tell them and probably many of them don't know. Mine does, but there are not many with his experience of intact dogs, and crucially the training at vet schools is skewed to making money from procedures like neutering (he says - I didn't go to vet school :lol: ).

Similarly with the intact dogs - their behaviour will have had nothing to do with their intactness, but plenty to do with their internal and external environment. I have yet to come across an intact dog with a behaviour problem that I have not seen in equal strength in neutered dogs. I have yet to have to recommend a dog be neutered to address any bheavioural problem, and I doubt you have either. I can and do sort out behaviour without surgery. Nothing remarkable about me or about that - any decent behaviourist can do it.
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josie1918
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by josie1918 »

As I said before, our experiences have been very different. :D
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Mattie
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by Mattie »

These days when so many dogs are neutered we have a lot more aggressive dogs, I am not saying this is down to neutering it isn't, there is a lot more to aggression than that.

Before Ellie was spayed I never had a problem with Bonnie, after she was spayed Bonnie was more willing to stand up to her. This could be for many reasons including Bonnie reaching maturity.
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DogzRule1996
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by DogzRule1996 »

I'd say it depends on the dog. Our Chigi, Sam, was a shy bug when we first got him, but after being neutered he's become more aggressive. He suddenly won't let strangers pet him. For Buddy, our golden mix, nothing happened. He's still the exact same as when we first met him.
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emmabeth
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by emmabeth »

So your Chigi was nervous to start with and after neutering... became more nervous, to the point where he is now fear aggressive in that situation.

My hapy go lucky, water off a ducks back, turn the other cheek when bullied or pushed around little dog - once neutered, turned into an absolute NIGHTMARE, fearful, nervous, which rapidly turned into fear aggression and from there into a desire to get in there first and kick the other dogs *** before it could kick his and this was within a few weeks of being neutered, there was NO other incident that occurred at the same time as him being neutered that could account for this.

The next one I neutered much earlier, having been told (again erroneously) that it was because hed been entire for 'so long' (18 months actually)... so he was done at 6 months.

Hysterical, sound phobic, totally submissive (not at ALL in the nature of a bedlington terrier x!), obsessive and neurotic. Prior to neutering hed been a normal puppy.

Current entire male is 20 months - shows some mild signs of nervousness/fear aggression in certain circumstances. Wont be neutered until that is fixed (getting there!) and once he IS he will take a few steps back in his training so that hes back into doing things he finds super easy to handle and he wont be pushed for a good few months until any drop in confidence is ironed out.

Thats just the three males I currently have, there have been more I have owned, fostered and many m any more that I personally know who have had suprising (given the owners were told there would be NO ill effect on the dogs personality or temperament) and unpleasant side effects following neutering.

Interesting if slightly random question thats just sprung to mind - IN zoos... where they have entire male animals they cannot and will not breed from - do they ever neuter those?

I know it is routinely done in domestic animals such as horses and cows and sheep (males only) and I wonder if this is where the idea came from originally. The differences being of course that horses cows and sheep are herd animals and prey items and as such behave markedly differently to a scavenger/predator like a dog, and certainly cows and sheep we dont keep the neutered male animals all that long.

Neutered human males have a lot of behavioural problems, those neutered before puberty show the same long bone growth and bone density issues that dogs do too... I can appreciate that some of the behavioural issues are social, given that the only real 'group' of neutered human males we have useful (ish) evidence from were the castrati... who were of course also the popstars of their time in some cases and that will have an effect on behaviour too...

Ramble over - I think its very very odd to assume we can castrate anything and it NOT have unwanted, negative side effects both physically and behaviourally.
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Mattie
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by Mattie »

Personnally I wouldn't neuter a male dog I would keep him entire unless there was a health reason were it would benefit the dog.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I wish I had the knowledge I have now when I first got Joe, he was 10 months old, had brain damage and was humping everything he could so I got him neutered. It did stop the humping but he became a very nervous dog, much worse than he had been when he first arrived.

Joe is the first and only dog I have had neutered, Merlin was already done by the rescue, all my previous dogs were entire and I never had a problem with them.
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jacksdad
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by jacksdad »

There is no doubt that there are population issues with dogs/cats and spay/neuter maybe the only solution. I say maybe because being just "dogs/cats" I doubt any other options have been explored, thought of, or investigated . and if this is the case, we work with what our options are.

HOWEVER, in the just 10ish months I have had Jack (who was neutered at 6months per the paper work I have on him) and his issues AND that there are almost weekly two or three posts that have some variation of "but, but my dog is spayed/neutered how can this be happening?" I am convinced we need to rethink how spaying/neutering is "sold". I know this means risking people not doing it when appropriate, but I think the evidence is too overwhelming that spaying/neutering isn't without risk of side affects. People need to be more prepared with knowledge of the risks and how to minimize the side affects should there be any.

I am not about to get on a anti spay/neuter bandwagon though as I am not blind to the numbers of dogs and cats who are in shelters/spca/pound etc. But I do think we need to stop pushing it as the end all solution to all problems and acknowledge that there are side affects and risks.
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Nettle
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Re: Deciding Which Dog to Nueter first...

Post by Nettle »

Amen to that, Jacksdad
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